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That Time I Made A Website

tiffany-young.com

41–50 of 124 posts

Re: That Time I Made A Website

#41
post #32
post #8

If this site was made by a male you wouldn't even see it on the front page of HN. (=xェx=)

I disagree. Franky, I think males would tend not to submit posts like this to HN, which is their loss. That she is female is not why this post was upvoted, it was upvoted because it was deemed to be of interest to the community.

I'm just seeing a pattern here. A friend posted my site here a while ago when I was starting programming. And it hit immediately the front page of HN. I received so many "I love you", "Marry me"-mails because of it. So I'm not exactly sure...

Re: That Time I Made A Website

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The issue is not that it is "bad". It a matter of separation of concerns. This tag is intended to be used for presentation only. It has no other semantic meaning. Since the move is to have presentation handled by CSS and HTML should only be used for semantic markup, the tag has been deprecated." http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4873491/what-is-so-bad-ab...

In practice and are only used for presentation.

and also have meaning. If I put some text in an tag, it's because I want it to have emphasis, no?

Re: That Time I Made A Website

#43
post #25

This is why I love programming -- and the programming community, warts and all. Tiffany's an Environmental Science major who had a month of free time so she decided to learn how to make web pages. That's the same way I started (albeit as an English major), and the cocktail of instant feedback and ease of discovery kept me as a happy addict of the command line ever since. To me, accessibility and approachability are t…

Well .... making a website != programming.

Maybe it's because I'm old (41, starting programming on a TRS-80 in the early 80s), but I'm astonished sometimes at how much fuss is made over such relatively minor achievements. This is lowering the bar on what stories are 'interesting', and - honestly - turns me off coming to HN because of the (for me) lower signal : noise ratio.

And I disagree that accessibility is so important. Hard stuff is hard, and takes time and effort to work out. To provide a counter and parallel example - these days anyone can download some software and produce 'music' on their computer, and the ease of doing this means that a whole pile of rubbish is produced, some of which people actually believe is worthy of sale. People who are talented and capable will always find a way; conversely, I don't think it's a bad thing that people who are less talented and less capable give up, and find something else they are better at and have more fun doing.

Re: That Time I Made A Website

#44
post #30
post #11

I highly recommend you check out Bootstrap[0], especially since their recently released version is mobile first. [0] http://getbootstrap.com/getting-started/

No, please don't. This is about learning. Going through evolution of design from the ground up. Getting that joy that only comes when you do View Source and every single line is written by you.

Seconded, there should be a rule that says you must have tried to make everything included in bootstrap at least once yourself before your allowed to use it. Otherwise how will you learn? That way when you do use it you'll have the knowledge to use it properly (and hopefully within moderation) well and you'll appreciate how much easier it makes life that much more!

Re: That Time I Made A Website

#46
post #10

I don't understand the problem with the tag. It does the job and even though its deprecated its a long way away from being unsupported.

There's a few things worth responding to in your comment, some technical and non-technical, but both important for beginners to keep in mind. I assume you know most of what I'm going to say, so I'm pretending a student asked this.

So, what's the problem with the tag?

First, at the purely technical level, was deprecated in HTML4.01 and is not part of HTML5 at all. As far as I know browsers will still render it fine, but it's technically not valid HTML5.

Second, was deprecated along with other tags like , , , and because of a popular movement in the late 90s to encapsulate the logical and semantic structure of the document in HTML and the display structure in CSS. So, there's a case to me made for not using it as a Best Practice™, irrespective of the technical details about what browsers do or don't do, whether it's deprecated or not, etc.

Third, other people take your code as a reflection of what was going on inside your head when you wrote it. Your HTML and other code exists in a cultural milieu whether you like it or not. Potential employers will certainly read these sorts of things into your code, so if you care about that then you should care about what they'll think when they see you using the tag.

In sociolinguistics there's an idea of the "prestige" of a dialect. For example, in the US, someone speaking Received Pronunciation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIemPxHSb6Q&t=6m28s) will be perceived as more educated and worldly while something speaking with a thick Appalachian accent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU) might be perceived as a hillbilly. It's relative to both the listener and the speaker, of course, so someone might think someone with an RP accent is a snob or find solidarity in in a shared-but-low-prestige identity (cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7CzHFWsXQQ).

The tag is a marker for a low prestige dialect of HTML authorship. The fact that the OP got mildly reprimanded for using it is actually a sign of that. Folks will take its use as a sign that the author is an amateur and doesn't know that much about HTML. And if she were to use a tag, oh buddy -- let slip the dogs of war!

This isn't inherently true, of course. If I sat down and wrote some HTML using center tags I wouldn't suddenly know less about HTML, but that's the default presumption. This might not seem fair, but be honest: what would be your default, automatic reaction to someone using the or tags non-ironically?

Like someone moving to a foreign country for the first time, you'll pay a price if you don't understand the parameters of the culture in which you've decided to participate. Even if you disagree with the "cultural" conclusions, e.g., you think is fine in certain situations, you should have an idea of how other folks might take it. Otherwise you'll be surprised, confused, and perhaps a little hurt when folks push back.

Re: That Time I Made A Website

#47
post #43
post #25

This is why I love programming -- and the programming community, warts and all. Tiffany's an Environmental Science major who had a month of free time so she decided to learn how to make web pages. That's the same way I started (albeit as an English major), and the cocktail of instant feedback and ease of discovery kept me as a happy addict of the command line ever since. To me, accessibility and approachability are t…

Well .... making a website != programming. Maybe it's because I'm old (41, starting programming on a TRS-80 in the early 80s), but I'm astonished sometimes at how much fuss is made over such relatively minor achievements. This is lowering the bar on what stories are 'interesting', and - honestly - turns me off coming to HN because of the (for me) lower signal : noise ratio. And I disagree that accessibility is so imp…

The great wall of China started as one measly block. Do we undermine the effort of the labourers that pushed it into place? It is just one rock. Not worthy of any praise.

But we may be missing the bigger picture. What you call a minor achievement is in reality a big step towards becoming a programmer. The biggest block to programming is being courageous enough to dig into the source code. Be it markup, or else. Who are we to criticize the achievements of others? When in reality we walked down the same path. Do you not remember the first time you were able to print your name to the terminal prompt? I do. It was 1984. I got the same jolly feeling when I did it with Javascript, back in the year 2000.

Who knows if the OP will turn out to be a great programmer?

Re: That Time I Made A Website

#49
post #43
post #25

This is why I love programming -- and the programming community, warts and all. Tiffany's an Environmental Science major who had a month of free time so she decided to learn how to make web pages. That's the same way I started (albeit as an English major), and the cocktail of instant feedback and ease of discovery kept me as a happy addict of the command line ever since. To me, accessibility and approachability are t…

Well .... making a website != programming. Maybe it's because I'm old (41, starting programming on a TRS-80 in the early 80s), but I'm astonished sometimes at how much fuss is made over such relatively minor achievements. This is lowering the bar on what stories are 'interesting', and - honestly - turns me off coming to HN because of the (for me) lower signal : noise ratio. And I disagree that accessibility is so imp…

Of course it's interesting, but especially if you think of the context and a broader scope when you look beyond the immediate story. I'll start with the smallest scope and zoom out.

On its face, it's a person talking about their personal accomplishment in making a static HTML/CSS website--something that you seems minor to you as a professional that has been doing it for as as long as you have--but I think you forgot the original thrill you got when you first got your TRS-80 to work. Being able to see the thrill of a beginner again should remind you of your own personal thrills. To have more people be able to code, and to speak the same basic language is a good thing. How many times have you wished your manager knew just a bit of coding, so he's not whipping you on why you took 2 weeks to debug that concurrent code and ended up only changing one line?

At a broader level, many of us are programmers, but we're not programmers in a vacuum. Few of us make things only just for ourselves, and being able to be a better programmer often is being able to relate and empathize with users. In addition, seeing programming again from the eyes of a beginner will often teach you much about what is difficult and what is not, because you've been dulled to the pain for so long. Beginners remind us to rethink assumptions we have, and whether they're still valid.

And lastly, at the biggest scope, software is eating the world. Many of the middle class work and jobs are being replaced with automation, and the OP is a small drop in the river of people realizing this, and scrambling to learn. If you're an entrepreneur, this is especially interesting because there's a demand and a need for education for a different audience, and that is opportunity.

In reference to accessibility, I think it is important. I agree that hard stuff is hard. There are no shortcuts to mastering something. But it doesn't mean that getting started has to be hard. Many of the cultural influences on society nowadays has been made simply due to accessibility to technology. When you democratize a technology for the masses, sure you're going to get lots and lots of crap. But there's no limited warehouse on the internet, and we have the ability to float cream to the top with search, aggregators and other tools. Without this phenomenon, many of the blogs you read on a daily basis wouldn't be on HN for you. Many of the youtube videos that you learned something from or were entertained by wouldn't be there. Because, if accessibility isn't important, then "hey, just setup an Apache web server and FTP it there."

If accessibility isn't important, you might as well drive a car by timing the firing of the pistons, rather than stepping on the gas pedal.

Re: That Time I Made A Website

#50
> My first reaction was "WHO RIGHT CLICKED 'VIEW PAGE SOURCE'??? WHO DOES THAT???"

People with too much time on their hands I guess. There's a phenomenon (that I subscribe to) that includes helping people by pointing out mistakes (since humans learn by making mistakes) but often not providing guidance. Not providing guidance forces the person who made the mistake, to think about it and then fix it in their own way.

Its not the kindest form of helping, but its pretty darn effective.

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