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Vietnam Internet restrictions come into effect

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Vietnam Internet restrictions come into effect

#41

Post by jawngee »

shirkey wrote: post #37
jawngee wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a few things going on here that I think are going to have serious influence on the next 10 years. First, the 9X kids, as I mentioned before, want what the rest of the world already has. They've had a taste and I don't think they are willing to concede. Second, a lot of Viet Kieu (Vietnamese from abroad) are returning and they have a lot of money. They're going to also want to maintain some semblance of what t…

By what measure is Vietnam beating Indonesia?

Sorry I was really tired when I wrote that, I meant Cambodia not Indonesia.

Re: Vietnam Internet restrictions come into effect

#42

Post by TheAnimus »

noubadi wrote: post #40

What's wrong with national security? At least as an Vietnamese I don't want Arab Spring comes to our country.

Is it security to prevent people to be able to discuss what is being done by the government?

Most people who have that freedom do not feel insecure.

Most people who have the freedom to critique their government feel insecure at the idea of having that ability limited in any way.

It would be interesting to hear the argument, why is this law a good thing for the Vietnamese people?

Re: Vietnam Internet restrictions come into effect

#43

Post by belorn »

comex wrote: post #14
alextingle wrote: post #12

> Last month the US embassy in Hanoi said it was "deeply concerned by the decree's provisions", arguing that "fundamental freedoms apply online just as they do offline". My hypocrisy-meter just broke.

Considering that the US has zero speech-related internet censorship, and the comparison is to a law banning sharing any news articles online and publishing any material opposing the government, I'd say the US still has a valid complaint here.

You are free to any speech, so long it doesn't contain any videos of soldiers gunning down children from a helicopter, or you do not "encourage" copyright infringement, or post how to circumvent a lock on property you have bought, or enables gambling, or if it might look like one of the forbidden form of porn if you tilt the head on the side.

Then its DNS takedown time. Either by making sure that resolvers will lie, or removing it from the Internet on a US "because we say so" basis. No judge, no jury, no trial. Those stuff is only for "real" things, not virtual "sites" on the Internet.

Re: Vietnam Internet restrictions come into effect

#44

Post by mpyne »

veidr wrote: post #39
mpyne wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But on the other hand, making the U.S. congruent to every despotic state tends to cheapen the sacrifice of those who actually had to live (and die) under those despots, instead of sipping a venti espresso at Starbucks while typing away on their MacBook Pro.

Some people sip espressos in North Korea, too. Meanwhile, we (Americans) have more people living in cages than North Korea, China, Iran, and Vietnam combined. Most of them citizens, incarcerated after being subjected to extremely dubious trials for crimes related to drugs -- and whoops, look at today's latest headline: Drug Agents Use Vast Phone Trove Eclipsing N.S.A.’s Relatively free states slide morph into corrupt…

> Relatively free states slide morph into corrupt police states precisely when the people sipping coffee with their luxury computers refuse to notice it

That's... at least mildly pretentious. What social ills are the brave bands of roving latté-sippers going to save the country from next? Anyways, history has shown that despots don't have to care about what the intelligentsia thinks.

Re: Vietnam Internet restrictions come into effect

#45

Post by veidr »

mpyne wrote: post #44
veidr wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people sip espressos in North Korea, too. Meanwhile, we (Americans) have more people living in cages than North Korea, China, Iran, and Vietnam combined. Most of them citizens, incarcerated after being subjected to extremely dubious trials for crimes related to drugs -- and whoops, look at today's latest headline: Drug Agents Use Vast Phone Trove Eclipsing N.S.A.’s Relatively free states slide morph into corrupt…

> Relatively free states slide morph into corrupt police states precisely when the people sipping coffee with their luxury computers refuse to notice it That's... at least mildly pretentious. What social ills are the brave bands of roving latté-sippers going to save the country from next? Anyways, history has shown that despots don't have to care about what the intelligentsia thinks.

Urrrgh, for fuck's sake: are you gonna make me trot out the 'First they came for the...' cliché (which like all good clichés is totally on point)?

Obviously, despots don't care what the intelligentsia or anybody else with I assume you're caucasian and rarely have your luxury car searched at traffic stops, or your electronic devices searched at border crossings? Me too. Yay for us.

Re: Vietnam Internet restrictions come into effect

#46

Post by noubadi »

TheAnimus wrote: post #42
noubadi wrote: post #40

What's wrong with national security? At least as an Vietnamese I don't want Arab Spring comes to our country.

Is it security to prevent people to be able to discuss what is being done by the government? Most people who have that freedom do not feel insecure. Most people who have the freedom to critique their government feel insecure at the idea of having that ability limited in any way. It would be interesting to hear the argument, why is this law a good thing for the Vietnamese people?

The thing is, BBC or other foreign media always push things like this in a way that Vietnam Government is against "human rights", and "freedom"... From my point of view, they just want to attack Vietnam Government and make it look bad, by telling half-truth. This is not the first time. My English is not good enough to give you a clear understanding about that law, but it's not about "prevent people to discuss what is being done by the government". The exact word could be more close to "bring down the government", and that I think no government in the world let someone do that "in freedom". I dont say Vietnam Gov is good, but at least they are not that bad to bring down right now. All the people that "oppose" Vietnam Gov always close to "bring down", and tell half-truth or lying, and related to foreign countries. So I am fine with that part of the law. The other parts are about management, providing and using Internet services and information.

Re: Vietnam Internet restrictions come into effect

#47

Post by sudomal »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #25
alextingle wrote: post #12

> Last month the US embassy in Hanoi said it was "deeply concerned by the decree's provisions", arguing that "fundamental freedoms apply online just as they do offline". My hypocrisy-meter just broke.

The US doesn't block YouTube, Facebook, blogspot, wordpress, imgr...uhm...they don't block anything that I know of.

No need to censor if watching people means they'll self censor.

Re: Vietnam Internet restrictions come into effect

#48

Post by mpyne »

veidr wrote: post #45
mpyne wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Relatively free states slide morph into corrupt police states precisely when the people sipping coffee with their luxury computers refuse to notice it That's... at least mildly pretentious. What social ills are the brave bands of roving latté-sippers going to save the country from next? Anyways, history has shown that despots don't have to care about what the intelligentsia thinks.

Urrrgh, for fuck's sake: are you gonna make me trot out the 'First they came for the...' cliché (which like all good clichés is totally on point)? Obviously, despots don't care what the intelligentsia or anybody else with I assume you're caucasian and rarely have your luxury car searched at traffic stops, or your electronic devices searched at border crossings? Me too. Yay for us.

> are you gonna make me trot out the 'First they came for the...' cliché (which like all good clichés is totally on point)?

And also like any good cliché, says more than it really says. For instance, that there is no permissible reason for government to go after anyone since it logically follows that if we let government go after Party A, they are that much closer to going after Party B.

For that reason, instead of living my life by clichés, I try to evaluate each situation on its own merits.

> I assume you're caucasian and rarely have your luxury car searched at traffic stops, or your electronic devices searched at border crossings?

Caucasian, yes.

'Luxury' car, no. Unless the MP3 player is a luxury nowadays. It doesn't get searched at traffic stops, but that is probably because I've not run across a traffic checkpoint in years.

Maybe I should go visit the despotic America though, so that I can find out what a traffic stop is like? Where would I find that, as I've been all over the East Coast and have had no success yet in finding it.

Re: Vietnam Internet restrictions come into effect

#49

Post by rdl »

gizmo686 wrote: post #33
rdl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Child pornography doesn't have a bright line, though. I don't think 16/18/21 are particularly different (I.e. societies could choose any of those). There still seems to be debate around the edges of simulated, simulated using real photos of non sexual underage people, self pics to other minors, etc. And IMO the bigger issue of knowing possession vs. it being totally radioactive.

>There still seems to be debate around the edges of simulated Not just the edges. I've seen porn sites self censor obvious fictional porn depicting children, because of concern over hosting child porn.

The thing where Australia banned porn with smaller (A/B) breasted adult women because it "contributed to pedophilia" was amazing, too.
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