Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#41

Post by mcphilip » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 3:23 AM UTC

morpher wrote: post #32

mcphilip wrote: post #12

Cue praise from the majority of the main stream media that only tens of thousands of communications are improperly monitored since there are roughly 150 billion emails sent per day (globally). The surveillance program will be declared a stunning success and most people will agree since they are impressed by small percentages. The error rate being so low will imply, to most people, that the NSA is painstakingly concer…

Why are you less impressed by small percentages than by numbers that are large only in the absence of a reference scale? It's generally not possible to design flawless systems, and failure rate a much more meaningful number.

I was looking for intelligent discussion about why even a small percentage failure rate is worth being alarmed at and how this can be communicated to Average Joe effectively. Instead, I get this inane straw man reply.

Obviously a very small failure rate is impressive in the abstract. We're not talking about the abstract here, we're talking about foundational concerns about whether there can be an expectation of privacy in any online communication.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#42

Post by beedogs » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 3:27 AM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

> What the fuck is going on in my country?

The short answer is that it isn't your country anymore.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#43

Post by DannyBee » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 3:37 AM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #23

LoganCale wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their committee appointment is important to us, not just them. It's better to have a few allies on these committees, even if their hands are tied, than to have none at all. They've done more than most have been able to do, including calling out NSA lies.

I strongly disagree, but I respect that we're on the same side here, so I'll very carefully consider your logic. But in return, I'd ask you to carefully consider my argument, which is that we need to know the current damage right now far more than we need allies in the Senate IC in the future.

Unless americans are willing to do anything abuot it, which, so far, they haven't been, what more do you need to know right now?

As a country, we have already made clear that the majority are okay with roughly anything that is justified on the alter of terrorism.

Do you really think there is something they can reveal that will change this?

If so, what is it? IE What do you think is the galvanizing thing they could ever reveal that would make the tradeoff you suggest worth it.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#44

Post by SCAQTony » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 3:37 AM UTC

We should shove our NSA rejection letters (mine was signed LOL) in their faces and make them give us our box loads of data along with out analytics scores.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#45

Post by TruthElixirX » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 3:37 AM UTC

beedogs wrote: post #42

jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

> What the fuck is going on in my country? The short answer is that it isn't your country anymore .

It was never your country. You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception.

In the 80's it wasn't the country for gays. In the 50's it wasn't the country for non-whites. In the 1900's it wasn't the country for women. Before the 1900's it was only old white land owners.

The ruling class has just expanded to not be exclusively old white men. And the oppressed class has expanded in the same way.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#46

Post by jnbiche » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 3:39 AM UTC

olefoo wrote: post #40

jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

Wyden & Udall are constrained by their roles within the system; they have both been trying to encourage people to ask the right questions, but they are not going to break the laws they are sworn to uphold. What we need is an independent congressional commission with the power to unilaterally declassify information that is not directly related to ongoing operations ( i.e. anything naming specific operatives or live in…

Just to be clear, the only thing that Udall and Wyden are actually sworn to is this oath:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#47

Post by SimHacker » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 3:40 AM UTC

argumentum wrote: post #37

jnbiche wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree, but I respect that we're on the same side here, so I'll very carefully consider your logic. But in return, I'd ask you to carefully consider my argument, which is that we need to know the current damage right now far more than we need allies in the Senate IC in the future.

If what they can give us "right now" won't win us the war, we lose a valuable resource to win the war over the long term. Afaik, these are two of the few principled people with power in the legislature .. let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

Just assume the worst. That's as close as you can possibly get to knowing everything right now for sure.

I just hope that Snowden thought to take a copy of Clapper's (any anyone else responsible's) internet browsing history, or at least is creative enough to forge some terrible blackmail material and leak it, just to do to them what they're doing to us.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#48

Post by pekk » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 3:44 AM UTC

beedogs wrote: post #42

jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

> What the fuck is going on in my country? The short answer is that it isn't your country anymore .

Better load up and kill somebody who works for the government to "take it back," right? This drivel makes me sick.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#49

Post by chanux » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 3:44 AM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

I'd like to think it would be political suicide for any president

I am not an American and have no idea how politics work in the US but Obama is basically a political Zombie by now. He can do whatever he wants now right?

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#50

Post by ihsw » Thu, Aug 22, 2013, 3:54 AM UTC

droopyEyelids wrote: post #35

ihsw wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is all of congress tapped? All the governors? Snowden hinted at this. What the fuck is going on in my country? I'm going to assume the worst, which would be that the NSA is used as a tool of blackmail by nefarious parties whom the NSA relies on. Key House and Senate members put in a good word for the NSA and then they get some "free" information on their opponents, at which point they convince their opponents to "t…

You're adding an extra step, unnecessarily complicating your idea. The blackmail information doesn't need to be passed to a third party. It can be brought directly to bear on problematic government officials by the NSA. All they would need to do is make the senator understand that a record of all correspondence and browsing history exists. Considering about 5% of the population has some pedophilic tendency, and estim…

That's assuming the NSA is interested in playing politics. General Alexander may be well-versed in public speaking but I'd be hard-pressed to think managing political allegiances is of interest to him.

Also, the various federal executive agencies (Justice Department, State Department, et al) may very well be tapping into NSA data as much as possible for exactly what you're describing, especially since the recent DEA (Justice) and IRS (Treasury) revelations have shed some light on this.

The NSA's dam for controlling information dissemination has cracks in it, and I'm betting it'll be wedged wide open for the federal executive agencies to use at their convenience.