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Massachusetts Introduces Software Service Tax

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Re: Massachusetts Introduces Software Service Tax

#41

Why do all the American states have different taxes? Here in Australia we have 10% GST (Goods and services tax). So wherever you're from in the country you can expect both goods and services to be priced the same. So much simpler for the average consumer!

The name of the country is United States of America.

So it was formed that way - each of the original 13 states got together to form a more perfect union. But each of the 13 states retained some autonomy including ability to levy tax within the state for various means or purposes.

Been that way ever since.

Can't see a national tax - our culture would not allow it.

Re: Massachusetts Introduces Software Service Tax

#42

Why do all the American states have different taxes? Here in Australia we have 10% GST (Goods and services tax). So wherever you're from in the country you can expect both goods and services to be priced the same. So much simpler for the average consumer!

The name of the country is United States of America. So it was formed that way - each of the original 13 states got together to form a more perfect union. But each of the 13 states retained some autonomy including ability to levy tax within the state for various means or purposes. Been that way ever since. Can't see a national tax - our culture would not allow it.

You mean like the national income tax?

Re: Massachusetts Introduces Software Service Tax

#43
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional services taxes similar to sales taxes are not unheard of, nor are gross receipts taxes that vary based on what kind of business you're in. There are as many tax systems as there are tax jurisdictions. The problem here is somebody wrote a "services tax" without the first clue what they were actually doing. It's like intending to impose a new cigarette tax, but writing it such that anything which burns mig…

There are as many tax systems as there are tax jurisdictions. And this is one of the main problems. Not only are governments (local, state, federal) trying to find creative ways to siphon money from the private sector, but the inherent nature of software services make this impossible to manage or track. What's wrong with allowing a company to charge $1 for their software, then $100k for customization? Yes, it's a sal…

It's not different, and if that's happening in those industries, it should be halted there, as well. Either that isn't happening (or happening to the same extent) in those industries, it hasn't been brought to the legislature's attention, or, as someone brought up elsewhere, other industries have better lobbyists.

Don't look for me to defend sales taxes in general, they're regressive evils and should be ripped out and replaced with progressive income taxes. But so long as they exist, I'm happy to see loopholes like this closed. Just not closed stupidly.

Re: Massachusetts Introduces Software Service Tax

#44
post #35

This has disturbing implications for the rest of the country. What happens if the developers of Massachusetts just roll over and give the state hundreds of millions of dollars of extra revenue? What message does that send to other states?

I have no doubt that this will spread. I'm almost surprised that it hasn't taken off before now. But as for the people of Mass., they won't be rolling over and "giving". It is money that will be taken . That's one of the big differences between a tax, and government "revenue", and the way a business makes its money.

Maryland tried this and killed it, try this search: https://www.google.com/search?q=maryland+computer+services+t...

Particularly unwise given how easy it was for people to move to Northern Virginia.

Re: Massachusetts Introduces Software Service Tax

#45

Why do all the American states have different taxes? Here in Australia we have 10% GST (Goods and services tax). So wherever you're from in the country you can expect both goods and services to be priced the same. So much simpler for the average consumer!

It allows companies and people to vote with their feet.

Re: Massachusetts Introduces Software Service Tax

#46
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional services taxes similar to sales taxes are not unheard of, nor are gross receipts taxes that vary based on what kind of business you're in. There are as many tax systems as there are tax jurisdictions. The problem here is somebody wrote a "services tax" without the first clue what they were actually doing. It's like intending to impose a new cigarette tax, but writing it such that anything which burns mig…

There are as many tax systems as there are tax jurisdictions. And this is one of the main problems. Not only are governments (local, state, federal) trying to find creative ways to siphon money from the private sector, but the inherent nature of software services make this impossible to manage or track. What's wrong with allowing a company to charge $1 for their software, then $100k for customization? Yes, it's a sal…

@nknighthb, I can't seem to reply to your last comment, but I'm curious... why are sales taxes "regressive evils?" The more you consume, the more you pay (at least for physical products). This makes sure everyone has skin in the game.

I would argue that an income tax is a moral "evil", but realize we're way past ever abolishing it. There's no inherent reason a governing power should ever know how much income you produce, even though it may be convenient (and popular) to impose. I suppose that's where our worldviews differ.

Re: Massachusetts Introduces Software Service Tax

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NH has no sales tax and no state income tax. Of course you have much fewer "services" than MA. For example MA has a 19 member Commission on the Status of Women - which of course needs an executive director. And the executive director needs an assistant.

But don't forget that reduced services include things like town water (you'll need a well with a radon filtration system), a reliable electric grid (you'll need a generator), and timely snow removal (you'll want a vehicle that uses thrice the fuel). And the crux of the matter - as NH does absolutely nothing against federal taxes, you'll still be paying the majority of your present transaction costs.

You want to talk about town water? Boston and surrounding towns get water from the Quabbin reservoir. Due to above average rainfall this year it is filled to 95% capacity. If not one more drop of rain were added to the reservoir it would take 5 years to drain it at current use rate. So I was shocked when the MA DEP forced our town to restrict outdoor watering. Someone in a make work job decided our towns use was above a standard set for western towns and there is no debate. Restrict water use or be fined.

Re: Massachusetts Introduces Software Service Tax

#48
post #15

Hey guys, The ABI Hub is an awesome coworking space and startup incubator in Manchester, NH. http://abihub.org/ I've been going there for a few months and moved to NH at the beginning of the year. It has been awesome. There is a technology scene ready to bloom in Manchester. Also, the cost of living is about 50% of Boston's. For those who aren't from around here, NH doesn't have unfair taxes :)

> NH doesn't have unfair taxes

As a result, NH has blessed us with drive up liquor stores right on the interstate. ;)

Re: Massachusetts Introduces Software Service Tax

#49
I practice tax law and write for forbes on tax law.. this area of law may seem confusing, but that is mostly for the media buzz. The law has generally been fairly clear.

Many states have long had laws that taxed "pre-written or canned software." MA is just one of the newer states that have enacted this law. New York has had the law in the books for years.

Pre-written software means that you've previously created software and you've literally re-used the code.

Professional, custom or designed software is still exempt as a "professional service."

What happens when you're like SAP and you start with canned software, but then customize it? Then, you pay sales tax on the canned portion and then you don't pay tax on the customization costs.

In sales tax audits, they test this by comparing code sold off the shelf to the code presented as "custom." Generally, consultants are used.

There are also sales tax on "informational reports." This started as paying sales tax for "stock tips" sent over the fax. But, today this has extended to informational reports that were created by software. Thus, a lot of businesses that "don't sell canned software" and provide a "service" cannot escape the tax law by simply providing the end product alone.

I can understand people getting angry, but the law has been around for a while... I've gone through multiple audits with companies such as reuters, bloomberg and etc. I don't particularly feel that its unfair, since if you provide a "custom service" then you're exempt.

Obviously, there are always going to be ways to "technically" get away with avoiding sales tax, but that doesn't mean that they're inherently unfair. Companies avoided paying sales tax on software for a while, until the states realized that they were being cheated by these businesses. Then, businesses decided that if we don't sell the software on "CDs" then its not tangible property and "legally not taxable." So, they would bring the CDs and install the software and then leave with the CD's to effectively avoid the sales tax.

Then, they started to allow the software to be hosted online and only provide the "end-product aka SaaS." Services are commonly exempt and hard to follow, thus they escaped the states radar for years. Its a cat and mouse game that will continue.

I think the best example is if an attorney or accountant were to provide the same exact tax return or memo to everyone, then it'd be taxable under sales tax law. But, because we provide a different memo or tax return to everyone (maybe using a system like turbotax or something), it is a custom product because the service is only applicable to that person. If the developer provides a copy of turbo tax, then its taxable because its always the same. But, if the developer uses RoR, Python or some other system to "create" the end product for the individual, then its not taxable. Hopefully, this crude example is decent enough to get the point across.

Re: Massachusetts Introduces Software Service Tax

#50
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No plumbers don't charge sales tax on services; neither do doctors, lawyers, dentists, or landscapers. Sensible states tax things they want to discourage like gasoline use or smoking. They don't tax people trying work more.

That line caught me off guard. In New Jersey they do charge sales tax. All contractors (plumbers, remodelers, electricians)are required to charge and file sales tax on services that are done as maintenance. There is something called "exempt capital improvements" and they do not get taxed. Basically, new kitchen remodel doesn't get taxed, but fixing a broken faucet does. Repair a cracked bathtub? Taxed. Rip it out and…

It sounds like NJ isn't encouraging conservation, but rather more consumption. This is backwards, IMHO.
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