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On Being Black in China

theatlantic.com

41–50 of 58 posts

Re: On Being Black in China

#41
post #39
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard as it may be to imagine, there are things that are more important than whether someone said something nice once about the US civil rights movement - such as hundreds of millions of Chinese lives. The USA is not the center of the world and the level of platitudinous veneration of American icons is not the most important criterion by which to judge a foreign leader.

You sound like a writer for Reader's Digest beating a drum of evil empires. It is a cheap shot about deaths that cannot be argued here just as Trayvon Martin would not be a HN article. HN politics have to be circuitous, indirect and arguments depending on popular assumptions but cannot be taken to task as it would be off-topic. How can people take these death estimates at face value when academics have been paid by t…

  “Imagine, if you will, someone who read only Reader’s 
  Digest between 1950 and 1970, and someone in the same 
  period who read only The Nation or The New Statesman.  
  Which reader would have been better informed about the 
  realities of Communism? The answer, I think, should give 
  us pause. Can it be that our enemies were right?”
 
Susan Sontag, 1982.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/00/03/12/specials/sontag-commun...

Re: On Being Black in China

#42
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

never mind the damage Mao inflicted on the country. China became more materialistic, less ideological, less idealistic. "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. Post-Mao China is more realistic, more productive, much wealthier, and much less insane (aka "ideological/idealistic"). It is less likely to foment violent revolution nearby and more interested in profitable stability. I…

Does that meet the definition of genocide? I'm no expert but, first of all, the peasants who died weren't a different ethnic group or a social class antagonistic to Mao, they were the ones who swept him to power. Second, AFAIK Mao didn't intentionally set out to kill people, the famine was the result of cockamamie policies of indigenous industrialization to be made possible by massive planned increases in farm produc…

> I'm no expert but, first of all, the peasants who died weren't a different ethnic group or a social class antagonistic to Mao

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign

  The Hundred Flowers Campaign was a period in 1956 in the 
  People's Republic of China during which the Communist 
  Party of China (CPC) encouraged its citizens to openly 
  express their opinions of the communist regime. After this 
  brief period of liberalization, Mao abruptly changed 
  course. The crackdown continued through 1957 as an Anti-
  Rightist Campaign against those who were critical of the 
  regime and its ideology. Those targeted were publicly 
  criticized and condemned to prison labor camps. Mao 
  remarked at the time that he had "enticed the snakes out 
  of their caves."
> Second, AFAIK Mao didn't intentionally set out to kill people

http://laogai.org/our_work/death-penalty-organ-harvesting

  In the thirty years following the establishment of the 
  People’s Republic of China in 1949, there were no clear 
  laws governing executions, which were carried out on a 
  massive scale. In the earliest years, millions of 
  Kuomintang soldiers, landlords, and members of the 
  bourgeois class, seen as threats to the new regime, were 
  killed. In 1950 alone, 2 million people were executed as 
  part of the “Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries” 
  campaign.

  Throughout the Mao period, the number of executions always 
  peaked during political campaigns. In 1971, 100,000 people 
  were executed during a single campaign, one of many such 
  campaigns during the Cultural Revolution period. During 
  these political campaigns, particularly in the 1950s, 
  regional governments were often tasked with meeting 
  execution quotas, premised on Mao’s belief that a certain 
  percentage of the population was always beyond reform.
I can go line by line on the rest - Taiwan's GDP-per-capita was more than 10X the PRC's by 1978; Owen Lattimore and the China Hands gave considerable American support for Mao; and the reason you are repeating "it was just an accident that millions of people died" is that that was the propaganda at the time, also used for the Holodomor of 1932-1933 in the Ukraine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor).

But really, you should ask yourself why you decided to get into the nasty business of Holocaust Denial. Tens of millions of people died, and they were murdered by Mao, his men, and the communist regime under his total control. Google a bit, read the primary sources from the period. The famine was the same thing that happened in the USSR, and what always happens when farmers have their land stolen by communist regimes. As for the mechanics of how that happened, shooting a farmer in the back of the head or sending him to a prison labor camp wasn't an "accident".

Whether you choose to admit these truths or not is up to you, but it gets to the core of why this point needs to be raised and not simply glossed over by the likes of the OP. Mao was not some mere hapless incompetent as you're trying to portray him, some well-meaning guy who f'd up. He was directly responsible for the largest mass murder in history.

Re: On Being Black in China

#43
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that meet the definition of genocide? I'm no expert but, first of all, the peasants who died weren't a different ethnic group or a social class antagonistic to Mao, they were the ones who swept him to power. Second, AFAIK Mao didn't intentionally set out to kill people, the famine was the result of cockamamie policies of indigenous industrialization to be made possible by massive planned increases in farm produc…

> I'm no expert but, first of all, the peasants who died weren't a different ethnic group or a social class antagonistic to Mao http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign The Hundred Flowers Campaign was a period in 1956 in the People's Republic of China during which the Communist Party of China (CPC) encouraged its citizens to openly express their opinions of the communist regime. After this brief period…

you jumped the shark at 'holocaust denial'. 'apologist' would have been sufficiently hyperbolic. ok...fair enough, no mention of Mao should henceforth be made without detailed discussion of the deaths he was responsible for.

Re: On Being Black in China

#44
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm no expert but, first of all, the peasants who died weren't a different ethnic group or a social class antagonistic to Mao http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign The Hundred Flowers Campaign was a period in 1956 in the People's Republic of China during which the Communist Party of China (CPC) encouraged its citizens to openly express their opinions of the communist regime. After this brief period…

you jumped the shark at 'holocaust denial'. 'apologist' would have been sufficiently hyperbolic. ok...fair enough, no mention of Mao should henceforth be made without detailed discussion of the deaths he was responsible for.

It was a Holocaust - millions died - and you did deny it ("didn't intentionally set out to kill people...a bad system...history is quite complicated"). Zero hyperbole involved. Exactly the same weasely language as you'd find with respect to WW2. What you said here was wrong, factually and ethically.

The people Mao murdered should indeed be remembered over Mao himself, and mentioned whenever his name is mentioned. The deaths were denied at the time and they are all-too-frequently elided now. We need to remember them.

Re: On Being Black in China

#45
post #30
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. First, the huge majority of those deaths were due to famine. Second, it was in a country in great turmoil, civil war, and a revolution (regime change, if you prefer). In places where such things happen -- as opposed to an country with a stable political climate like the US, people die (including by execution). Someone from a stable coun…

The real civil war, revolution, and turmoil pre-date most of those deaths. Mao killed people during his rule by creating unnecessary turmoil and revolution. One does not pin civil war deaths on Lincoln. But if Lincoln had led the country into ruin and mass death after the war was over , he would be blamed for those deaths, and rightly so. Thus with Mao. The People's Republic was established in 1949. The civil war at…

>The real civil war, revolution, and turmoil pre-date most of those deaths. Mao killed people during his rule by creating unnecessary turmoil and revolution.

These things don't suddenly disappear with the official end of the war. It's a country of a billion people, a regime change, trouble with neighbors, fight for the leadership etc. So, "X is in power all turmoil can stop now", is not really how it works.

>As for Hitler, he was not voted by a majority of Germans. The Nazis peaked at about 1/3rd of the vote.

44% actually. And by majority it means they got the most votes of any other party at the time, not that they got 51%. (Heck, the rulling parties for the last two elections in my country didn't even have anywhere near 40%).

And besides that, after Hitler was established in power, he had an almost total following from the German people, and very little (if at all) internal resistance.

Re: On Being Black in China

#46
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. First, the huge majority of those deaths were due to famine. Second, it was in a country in great turmoil, civil war, and a revolution (regime change, if you prefer). In places where such things happen -- as opposed to an country with a stable political climate like the US, people die (including by execution). Someone from a stable coun…

> First, the huge majority of those deaths were due to famine. Sir, that famine was in large part due to movements commandeered by Mao - such as the Great Leap Forward which completely decimated Chinese farming and agriculture.

Yes, but that does not make it a deliberate policy of killing people. It was what it was thought at the time as necessary to bring China in the modern age. One has to ask if without it China would be what it is today -- or perhaps some broken half-aggrarian society, more third-world than one of the world's economic powers.

Same way, as one has to ask if without Stalin's forced industrialization, USSR would be able to stand to the Nazis (and, if it could not, if Europe could). Besides the tragic human aspect, one has to see these kind of events with an impartial eye, just for their long term effects.

Re: On Being Black in China

#47
post #36
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. First, the huge majority of those deaths were due to famine. Second, it was in a country in great turmoil, civil war, and a revolution (regime change, if you prefer). In places where such things happen -- as opposed to an country with a stable political climate like the US, people die (including by execution). Someone from a stable coun…

and for the "philosophical" parts of nazism, even decades ago, e.g Nietchze, Wagner, Heidegger, Carl Schmitt, and tons of lesser intellectuals Whoa, that's way unfair, particularly to Nietzsche, who deplored anti-semitism and mocked it (along with Germans in general, for that matter—if there's any group he picked on it was them), and who would surely have been the first person to repudiate his thuggish sister's Nazif…

>Whoa, that's way unfair, particularly to Nietzsche, who deplored anti-semitism and mocked it (along with Germans in general, for that matter—if there's any group he picked on it was them), and who would surely have been the first person to repudiate his thuggish sister's Nazification of his work. Nietzsche's sensibility was far too refined for him to deserve lumping in with Nazi intellectuals.

He had contradictory points on those issues (even besides his supposdely falsification by his sister). But the core structure of his philosophy is compatible with the idea of nazism (if not for the masses, then as it was conceived by the elites, and for themselves).

Re: On Being Black in China

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see some of the opposite here in America. For some reason or another, people tend to prefer an Asian-looking kung fu teacher to a Caucasian or African-American one. The present-day East Asian cultures have become strangely obsessed with image. There was one Taiwanese pop star, I think her name was Jolin or something, she's rumored to have had 3 different plastic surgeries in the last however many years, and come…

> when a husband and wife marry and then the kids turn out looking nothing like the parents. Doesn't seem like a bad thing, just means that there should a good market for plastic surgery for the next generation.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the common 20-something intellectual culture has with plastic surgery. We're all assigned a certain level of genetic prettiness at birth, out of our control (as measured by how people perceive you, facial symmetry, etc.) Isn't plastic surgery a great equalizer?

Re: On Being Black in China

#49
post #45
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real civil war, revolution, and turmoil pre-date most of those deaths. Mao killed people during his rule by creating unnecessary turmoil and revolution. One does not pin civil war deaths on Lincoln. But if Lincoln had led the country into ruin and mass death after the war was over , he would be blamed for those deaths, and rightly so. Thus with Mao. The People's Republic was established in 1949. The civil war at…

> The real civil war, revolution, and turmoil pre-date most of those deaths. Mao killed people during his rule by creating unnecessary turmoil and revolution. These things don't suddenly disappear with the official end of the war. It's a country of a billion people, a regime change, trouble with neighbors, fight for the leadership etc. So, "X is in power all turmoil can stop now", is not really how it works. > As for…

"Majority" means over half. The word you're looking for is "plurality".

Mao's government was strong enough, within just a few years, to fight the US military to a standstill in a foreign war. What's the excuse for the millions who died after that?

Re: On Being Black in China

#50
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you jumped the shark at 'holocaust denial'. 'apologist' would have been sufficiently hyperbolic. ok...fair enough, no mention of Mao should henceforth be made without detailed discussion of the deaths he was responsible for.

It was a Holocaust - millions died - and you did deny it ("didn't intentionally set out to kill people...a bad system...history is quite complicated"). Zero hyperbole involved. Exactly the same weasely language as you'd find with respect to WW2. What you said here was wrong, factually and ethically. The people Mao murdered should indeed be remembered over Mao himself, and mentioned whenever his name is mentioned. The…

while we're at it, no one should ever be allowed to mention any pre-Civil War leader without a discourse on slavery, or Columbus without mentioning his murders and barbaric practices. There are enough historical atrocities to go around, no one should have to risk having a discussion without their personal one being overlooked.
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