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Verbal abuse on LKML

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41–50 of 97 posts

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#41
The mailing list threads she mentions both speak about a fix that creates regression and linus getting angry at it. Which makes me wonder : with that philosophy, i'm pretty sure the linux kernel code is filled with hooks to keep the old behavior in some cases and use the new one in new cases (you sometimes have to break things).

Is there any plan of having a non-backward compatible linux kernel one day, or just to start deprecating features ?

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#42

Does she read Hacker News?! Why on Earth would she like LKML to be some kind of politically correct cesspool like this forum?

That's a very thorough argument. In a very high-volume medium like the LKML where it is necessary to filter out relevant stuff, you usually don't want anything that provokes lengthy discussions, as these waste the time and patience of hundreds of people, including the submitter himself. Clearly stating "fuck off" instead of "yeah, your contribution is really nice, you have some nice additions, however ..." when the maintainer will definitely reject the contribution saves everyone's time.

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#43

We should be allowed to insult each other. In general. But here is the thing - if should be non discriminatory. The bullshit and idiocy should be called on spot without taking into consideration the race, gender,age, color and attitude towards my little pony of the offender. So as long as Linus treats everyone as a inferior retard until proven otherwise it is ok with me. I think racism and sexism (and lots of other i…

In the words of Linus, that's bullshit, and you're stupid for even suggesting it. If hating a subset of something is bad, then how is hating the whole better? Because it's more "fair"? It's also a lot more destructive, and misanthropy could be argued to include all -isms you could name, and then some.

Here's a thought, misanthropy is always projected self-hate, delusions of grandeur are just inferiority complexes, and Linus could use a shrink. Who doesn't, right? So I'm not judging. But if you're for calling a spade a spade, let's call a spade a spade.

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#44
I don't agree with verbal abuse, but correct me if I'm wrong is this really classified as that? http://marc.info/?l=linux-acpi&m=136157944603147&w=2

The only reason I can see that being abuse is swearing. Swearing shouldn't be seen as offensive. It's just a good way of expressing certain points.

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false dichotomy. I do a lot of code review, both in my day job and for many open source projects. I've never had to verbally abuse someone to explain the changes I wanted to see in a patch. (OSS projects I've done code review on include: Django, PyPy, Topaz, CPython, Twisted, and OpenStack)

Absolutely. There is a place for "I would prefer that XYZ". It often means "you have a convention slightly different than mine, I'd rather you change your code to fit my style but that's not a big issue". However, you can be very explicit by saying "It's a bad idea to do XYZ and here is why, this is what I suggest instead". Bonus point if your code review system can flag a comment as "Defect" to make it more explicit…

I can understand not always having time to explain why something is a bad idea when you're working on very high profile code.

I think Rusty's right: you can be unequivocally harsh with the code, but not swear at or call people morons.

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#46
post #35

She could've presented her critique without turning it into a gender issue: >I won't be the nice girl anymore.

This is also pretty telling: >Snort. Perhaps we haven't interacted very often, but I have never seen you be nice in person at KS. Well, there was that one time you came to me and very quietly explained you had a problem with your USB 3.0 ports, but you came off as "scared to talk to a girl kernel developer" more than "I'm trying to be polite".

While verbal abuse is not acceptable, neither is the male-shaming language she is using there.

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#47
post #10

I like Rusty Russell's point of view: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1525480 " You have to be harsh with code: People mistake politeness for uncertainty. Whenever I said 'I prefer if you XYZ' some proportion didn't realize I meant 'Don't argue unless you have new facts: do XYZ or go away.' This wastes my time, so I started being explicit. But be gentle with people. You've already called their baby ugly."

This is a false dichotomy. I do a lot of code review, both in my day job and for many open source projects. I've never had to verbally abuse someone to explain the changes I wanted to see in a patch. (OSS projects I've done code review on include: Django, PyPy, Topaz, CPython, Twisted, and OpenStack)

Maybe if you did, we might have had Python 3 support in Django years ago.

:P

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#48
post #35

She could've presented her critique without turning it into a gender issue: >I won't be the nice girl anymore.

She is not making it into a gender issue. That statement is just the same as if it was a guy making a stand and wrote:

  I won't be the nice guy anymore.

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#49
post #37

this issue comes up every couple of years - these guys write linux, you can't make them do anything. they are untouchable and will do/say whatever the hell they want. linus especially - is a grown ass man and does this in person too, as is his prerogative. anyone see his github speech? he stands up in front of 300 people and calls them all idiots.

Do you have a link to this speech?

I think he means the git talk at google [1] where he defines a few things at the start, among them "wrong, stupid: people who disagree with linus" and states that therefore, during the talk, by definition everyone who disagrees with him is stupid and butt-ugly.

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4Xp...

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