Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear • Hacker News Board

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#41

Post by jemfinch » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 3:56 AM UTC

WildUtah wrote: post #33

barry-cotter wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a Crooked Timber thread recently comparing the US's treatment of Latin America to the Soviet Union's treatment of the Warsaw Pact. The world made slightly more sense after that. The US is intimidating. It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them, it is a quarter of the world economy by itself, its military black budget is almost certainly larger…

It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them I agree with a lot of your post, but it wasn't anything the US government did that made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate. They have all been illegitimate since the very first time a gang of stronger men beat and killed a weaker one just because they could.

Except that democracy itself consists of a gang of more people beating up gangs of fewer people just because they can. It merely substitutes numbers for strength.

Neither might nor popularity makes right.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#42

Post by gaadd33 » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 4:00 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #10

qwertzlcoatl wrote: post #4

The ability of the US government to bend other governments in a certain direction, is like a leak in and of itself, as I surely did not expect so many governments, including mine in germany, to be this intimidated by the US powerhouse.

I read a Crooked Timber thread recently comparing the US's treatment of Latin America to the Soviet Union's treatment of the Warsaw Pact. The world made slightly more sense after that. The US is intimidating. It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them, it is a quarter of the world economy by itself, its military black budget is almost certainly larger…

It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them

What about all of the dictatorships that the US created or propped up? Saudi Arabia, Iran pre revolution, Panama under Noriega, etc?

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#43

Post by gaadd33 » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 4:08 AM UTC

WildUtah wrote: post #36

vrepsys wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to The Guardian ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a... ): 1.05am BST Associated Press has published extracts from a statement issued by the Bolivian defence minister, Ruben Saavedra, who was also on the redirected plane. It says the plane was allowed to land in Spain for refueling before flying on to Austria. It describes the rerouting as a "hostile act" by the US goverment: This…

1. Austria is not on the way from Spain to Bolivia by any plausible charter routing. 2. Portugal and France don't control airspace needed to fly from Spain to Bolivia. Neither do they control airspace needed or very desirable to fly between Austria and Bolivia. 3. Therefore what we are hearing now is not likely to be the real story.

For a flight from Moscow to Bolivia with a refueling stop in Lisbon, it appears that the great circle route takes you through Spain and France. From Austria it appears as if traversing France is the best route too.

Are there strong jet streams or something which would cause it to choose a different route?

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#44

Post by kaonashi » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 4:23 AM UTC

lttlrck wrote: post #34

mark_l_watson wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, Snowden obviously didn't do this for personal gain. His life is probably over. Compare this situation to a British citizen a few years ago who sold sensitive state secrets for money, and got the MAXIMUM PENALTY by UK law: 2 years in prison. Snowden who rightly or wrongly is acting from I believe are his own moral goals, may get the death penalty, tortured like Manning, or life in prison. "desperately wanted f…

How does the lack of personal gain justify anything?

How does the presence of personal gain impugn anything?

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#45

Post by barry-cotter » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 4:26 AM UTC

WildUtah wrote: post #33

barry-cotter wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a Crooked Timber thread recently comparing the US's treatment of Latin America to the Soviet Union's treatment of the Warsaw Pact. The world made slightly more sense after that. The US is intimidating. It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them, it is a quarter of the world economy by itself, its military black budget is almost certainly larger…

It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them I agree with a lot of your post, but it wasn't anything the US government did that made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate. They have all been illegitimate since the very first time a gang of stronger men beat and killed a weaker one just because they could.

Illegitimate as in outside the bounds of polite society's discourse, not as in something you abhor.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#46

Post by barry-cotter » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 4:35 AM UTC

gaadd33 wrote: post #42

barry-cotter wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a Crooked Timber thread recently comparing the US's treatment of Latin America to the Soviet Union's treatment of the Warsaw Pact. The world made slightly more sense after that. The US is intimidating. It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them, it is a quarter of the world economy by itself, its military black budget is almost certainly larger…

It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them What about all of the dictatorships that the US created or propped up? Saudi Arabia, Iran pre revolution, Panama under Noriega, etc?

Clients. None of these are remotely models for other countries to follow, alternative paradigms of government like Imperial Germany or Japan, or the totalitarian regimes that are now dust except for North Korea. The closest thing to an alternate respectable paradigm of government now is managed democracy, like in Singapore or Russia, which appears to be unstable, one more variety of anocracy.

The key is legitimate. Are there any dictatorships that don't even make a nod towards the idea of popular sovereignty? Any states where someone could say "L'etat, cest moi."?

As far as Panama goes, the US's Warsaw Pact.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#47

Post by cafard » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 10:42 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #10

qwertzlcoatl wrote: post #4

The ability of the US government to bend other governments in a certain direction, is like a leak in and of itself, as I surely did not expect so many governments, including mine in germany, to be this intimidated by the US powerhouse.

I read a Crooked Timber thread recently comparing the US's treatment of Latin America to the Soviet Union's treatment of the Warsaw Pact. The world made slightly more sense after that. The US is intimidating. It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them, it is a quarter of the world economy by itself, its military black budget is almost certainly larger…

"It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them"

Curious, then, how many Chinese and Russians there are yet. Is the US inefficient, or are you reaching a bit? And the US can be disgustingly good buddies with non-democratic governments: the Greek and Argentine juntas, various Middle Eastern states.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#48

Post by eli » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 1:17 PM UTC

milfot wrote: post #37

eli wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to jump to conspiracies. Is it really that crazy that France might just want to help an ally track down a desperately wanted fugitive? Surely they'd ask for our help if they thought a rogue intelligence agent was flying across the US.

France would ask air force one to divert?

Probably not... but not because they're being blackmailed by the NSA.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#49

Post by barry-cotter » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 9:43 PM UTC

cafard wrote: post #47

barry-cotter wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a Crooked Timber thread recently comparing the US's treatment of Latin America to the Soviet Union's treatment of the Warsaw Pact. The world made slightly more sense after that. The US is intimidating. It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them, it is a quarter of the world economy by itself, its military black budget is almost certainly larger…

"It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them" Curious, then, how many Chinese and Russians there are yet. Is the US inefficient, or are you reaching a bit? And the US can be disgustingly good buddies with non-democratic governments: the Greek and Argentine juntas, various Middle Eastern states.

I'm not claiming the US wants certain peoples dead. I'm claiming that given any opportunity or excuse it went to war with states whose basal ideology was not of rule by the people unless they were American clients.