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Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

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Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#41
post #19
post #7

Because it is an attack on gender. Creepers and harassment are exceedingly rarely discussed in gender neutral ways- it is usually a man doing something to a woman, or sometimes a discussion of the reverse. It is not often both in a neutral way. Additionally, the behaviour are things that a lot of people still do. Whereas with racism, to use the author's example, might draw the same ire (and it does in certain cases)…

I'd also like to add that the word "creeper" should be kept out of these discussions. It seems obvious that sexism is very common in United States computer culture. But the word "creepy", when used to describe an undesirable man, is every bit as derogatory as "fattie" or "slut" when applied to a woman. It's the kind of word that is used for character assasination. As you say, it doesn't go well when you imply that ev…

>The proper way to handle this issue is to just be direct when someone is behaving inappropriately and not use ambiguous language

It is not the responsibility of women to educate when they feel uncomfortable or fear for their safety.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#42

"creepy" is just a code word for "unattractive" or "awkward" i've been called hot, sexy, and creepy in the same hour span on a night out. speaking up in the conversation at the wrong time, or just having the wrong look on your face can be "creepy". staring off into space while thinking about code? watch out, you could be creeping someone out. overhear something and decide to but in with a "hey i think i know what you…

> "creepy" is just a code word for "unattractive" or "awkward"

It's not even really a code word anymore. It's just offensive. And usually when people say it, it's in a judgmental tone, which explains why everyone gets irate about it.

You might as well say someone is fat, old, ugly, or socially inept, using a typically disgusted tone, but people never say those things that way. But somehow calling someone "creepy" is O.K.?

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#43
Is the author of the original post as dense as he professes to be in his total inability to understand the angry responses to the discussions of "creeper?" I have a hard time believing that, so I conclude he is writing in a mode of rhetorical trolling in service of making his point.

either case, his obtuseness as to why labeling people as creepers might cause anger is dismaying, particularly coming from a high status make with a privileged background. (Harvard Law and ask that).

Of the many problems with his essay, probably the simplest to point out is the snide callousness of defining people as "creepers" who allegedly engage in "creepy" behavior.

As an anecdotal observation, when I hear female acquaintances use the term creep/creeper it almost always refers to unwelcome sexual advances by lower status males.

I have not heard the term used much to describe the more harrowing examples of sexual harassment outlined in helpful internet posts describing just what "creeping" is. Or if the term is used, there is clarifying language ("asshole, jerk") to make the distinction that it was a more serious situation.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#44
I wonder if it might just have to do with the fact that the people most inclined to comment on an article are the people that disagree with the premise most strongly. That goes with /any/ subject, not just this one. People that agree usually just hit "like" or move on. So if you're only paying attention to the direct comments, you're going to get a skewed view of things.

I neither agree or disagree with his premise, but I don't know that you can take the responses to his articles to represent some "trend", because you're basically filtering for a certain thing (disagreement) when you write on controversial subjects and just read the comments.

I guess I just read that article as: "I presented a strong opinion to the entire world AND PEOPLE DARED TO DISAGREE WITH ME?! WHO ARE THESE MONSTERS?!". Well I mean, you presented it to the entire world, what did you expect, 100% agreement? It doesn't necessarily mean anything though.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#45
The reason it makes people angry is that "creeper" has become the male equivalent of slut shaming. I was thinking long and hard about this and it suddenly hit me.

1) It entirely a judgement in the head of the person making the claim. There are no objective agreed upon standards for it, so there is no way to refute the claim. When someone calls another person a slut, they are using their own standards of sexuality, something about which there is no universal standard, and judging the person against that standard. Because the standard is the accuser's own there is no way to claim that they are objectively wrong.

2) Because of the above, it is entirely context dependent. As others have brought up, this means that the exact same behaviour from two different people can be called "creepy" in one instance, and desirable the next. Examine the difference in reactions between a person who does not fit the idealized marketing body type making themselves sexually avalable and a person considered "hot". I have seen women called slutty for the same behaviour that was proclaimed as "awesome" all because they were seen as less conventionally attractive than the other woman.

3) It immediately associates that person with a negative societal perception and group. Because of this both words have incredible power, although much good work has been done to dull the impact of slut but it is still damaging.

Due to all of the above, calling someone a creeper is an incredibly powerful way to immediately disempower that person, place them on the defensive, and quickly impact them in a negative fashion. We recognize that a combination of the above three points makes the word slut an incredibly negative word that should really never be used, and I'm sure we'll get there with creeper/creepy. But if you want to know why it makes people angry, well just remember that question the next time you get worked up over someone casually dropping a "slut" bomb on someone else.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the language that makes people nutters. They might have downvoted you for discounting the entire article for something that doesn't matter. Have you never seen the reactions the article is talking about?

I have seen a wide variety of reactions from people to this issue. They range from law-oriented, logic-oriented, or biologically-based viewpoints to exasperated "Damn, it, it was just an invitation to coffee!" types to completely illogical and counterproductive things like threats of violence. My point is that the author here doesn't really say which of these he doesn't "get", but just blanket calls people who disagr…

It's not that people that disagree are as a class nutters.

It's that nutters are disproportionately attracted to certain types of posts.

And yes it is a measured response, there are almost always a lot of annoying nonsensical shouters whenever the topic comes up.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"creepy" is just a code word for "unattractive" or "awkward" In this context, it simply means being pushy and mumbling (or screaming) about sex and/or violence all the time. E.g. http://fatuglyorslutty.com/ i've been called hot, sexy, and creepy in the same hour span on a night out. Yes, and people have called making a lot of money "killing it" before, too, but that doesn't suddenly make murder okay. How's that for a…

Yes, and people have called making a lot of money "killing it" before, too, but that doesn't suddenly make murder okay. How's that for a simple exercise in logic. That doesn't really follow. What he meant was that some people experienced him as hot, some experienced him as sexy, and some experienced him as creepy. In other words, he was not objectively any one of those things - different people had different expectat…

It's still talking about himself, not the stuff the blog post is about. It's still the same responding to a discussion about murder that they know people who wouldn't hurt a fly, but are regularly mistaken for hardened criminals because they have violent tattoos, or whatever. I mean, it's a nice story, but it's at best random, at worst being dense.

If anyone wants to argue the behaviour the post is actually referring to is not creepy, go ahead. Or explain why you feel addressed, I really don't understand why otherwise smart people regularly draw blanks on this one and get lost in the woods of semantics.

Not everyone gets along with everyone else.

You could say that to everything.

Have you ever dressed up as a good looking woman? I recommend it, it's an eye opener. I got talked into letting a female friend do make-up on me, it was pretty much perfect (I basically dressed up as a girl that didn't bother with a costume), and ta-daaa, at the carneval party of our school, which we did this, some older guy who worked there (super posh place), passing by behind me in a very crowded spot, grabbed my ass with BOTH hands, and so hard it very nearly hurt. But just for a split second, and before I could fully realize what had happened, much less turn around, he had moved on and when I finally did turn around I only saw his balding head disappear in the crowd (of my schoolmates, none of whom had such big hands by a very long shot, before anyone tries to tell me something about a situation I experienced first hand that I didn't know already, as seems to be tradition for some).

I'm not proud that I actually laughed instead of running after him, it was like he certified what great a job we had done (her mother was a professional make-up person, and she spent over an hour just on my face) -- but I wasn't the 15 year old girl he thought I was, and other than that he knew exactly what he was doing, he attacked and moved away like a snake, there was nothing playful about this, nothing at all. I often thought back to this episode when growing up, and I vowed to never take any of this lightly. And even with the stuff others told me, first-hand experience, even as minor as this one, made a world of difference to me. It's like seeing a world that was hidden from you for the first time -- the stuff some men normally don't do when I am around, because I am around...! -- and it's a shitty fucking world we should nuke from orbit.

So.... I see what the OP was being called creep for (not that they told us, just that the fact that they were called that means the word means nothing, heh), and raise you my little anecdote for what I would call very creepy.

You surely can see how "Not everybody gets along with everybody" is not really a good response here -- it kinda constitutes the default position of passivity, which is siding with the offender. And ignorance is not a defense when you're not even trying to understand, but immediately prefer to talk stuff which is NOT the subject.

If little kids think it's fine to wish rape on girls just because they're owning them in Call of Duty, then personally, I don't care if they're rapists or butt grabbers in spe, they're supporting something, unknowingly or recklessly or because they're actually twisted, which fucking needs to go, period. In the meantime, if people really for the life of them can't understand what the blog post is referring to, what seedy underbelly indeed, because words like "creep" are too big for them.... they really shouldn't pretend they're anything but talking past a discussion that's not possible to have with them.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen a wide variety of reactions from people to this issue. They range from law-oriented, logic-oriented, or biologically-based viewpoints to exasperated "Damn, it, it was just an invitation to coffee!" types to completely illogical and counterproductive things like threats of violence. My point is that the author here doesn't really say which of these he doesn't "get", but just blanket calls people who disagr…

It's not that people that disagree are as a class nutters. It's that nutters are disproportionately attracted to certain types of posts. And yes it is a measured response, there are almost always a lot of annoying nonsensical shouters whenever the topic comes up.

"It's that nutters are disproportionately attracted to certain types of posts.

And yes it is a measured response, there are almost always a lot of annoying nonsensical shouters whenever the topic comes up"

This is what I disagree with. I don't think posts on sexism attract significantly more "nonsensical shouters" than posts on, say immigration, or abortion or any other topic. I don't have direct data on this, but neither does the article, which is why I'm questioning its propositions.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#49

Anytime someone uses the word "Creeper" it quickly identifies the person as a Millenial. It sounds passive-aggressive. The word is "Stalker" kids. A creeper is someone who creeps around at night.

A creeper is someone you suspect of being a stalker. No, really; that's pretty much it. Someone who calls you creepy is expressing a sincere worry that you won't take no for an answer. No more, no less.

Upvoted for the concise answer, and for having the perfect handle under which to post it.

Re: Why Does Talking About Creepers And Harassment Make People So Angry?

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and people have called making a lot of money "killing it" before, too, but that doesn't suddenly make murder okay. How's that for a simple exercise in logic. That doesn't really follow. What he meant was that some people experienced him as hot, some experienced him as sexy, and some experienced him as creepy. In other words, he was not objectively any one of those things - different people had different expectat…

It's still talking about himself, not the stuff the blog post is about. It's still the same responding to a discussion about murder that they know people who wouldn't hurt a fly, but are regularly mistaken for hardened criminals because they have violent tattoos, or whatever. I mean, it's a nice story, but it's at best random, at worst being dense. If anyone wants to argue the behaviour the post is actually referring…

i've had my ass grabbed hard before too, by women. the first time it happened i was 14 years old, in high school. i remember it vividly - one of the senior girls grabbed my ass and said i was cute, and then ran off. it happens routinely when you go out to bars. someone will grab your ass in the crowd. you don't have to be a woman for this to happen to you.

i've also had my penis grabbed and fondled by women. female fingers run through my hair against my will (i have long black hair), and physically harangued by a mob of women.

i'm not a classically attractive person - it's just that being 'fun' opens you up to this sort of thing from ALL people.

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