Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

usatoday.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 85 posts

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#41

Post by davidhollander »

jeremyflores wrote: post #36
dfc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overwhelming majority of your post but I have to say the draft dodging/deferring comment was a little odd. I think its really tough for us (people who have grown up under an all volunteer service) to pass judgement on how a previous generation dealt with the draft, even more so if we pass those judgements as civilians.

I think Cheney's draft dodging status is fair game. He did, after all, co-architect our erroneous invasion and continued occupation of a country that did not actually attack us, so he has no problem sending others to war. Something other draft dodgers were not as directly responsible for.

It's an ad hominem which falls short of hypocrisy or contradiction because the soldiers and contractors sent to Iraq were not conscripted. Surely there are more substantive arguments to be made.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#42

Post by btilly »

dfc wrote: post #29
miles wrote: post #27

Somehow this quote from the interview by Thomas Drake, a former senior executive of the NSA and a decorated Air Force and Navy veteran[1], carries a bit more weight for me than the widely trumpeted blatherings of Dick Cheney[2], winner of five draft deferments[3]: I actually salute him. I will say it right here. I actually salute him, given my experience over many, many years both inside and outside the system. Remem…

I agree with the overwhelming majority of your post but I have to say the draft dodging/deferring comment was a little odd. I think its really tough for us (people who have grown up under an all volunteer service) to pass judgement on how a previous generation dealt with the draft, even more so if we pass those judgements as civilians.

I have never served in the military. But I am old enough that my brother fought in Vietnam (sort of not drafted, it is complicated) and my father was drafted for WW II. I also have relatives serving in the armed forces. (Including, at the moment, 2 nephews.)

I have observed what I've seen commented on elsewhere. There is a certain type of person who managed to skip the draft for themselves, and then proceeded to become overly supportive of the military and military aggression. Possibly as a reaction to the guilt of having not served when given the chance. There is a certain cowboy element to their approach. Prominent examples include Dick Cheney and George Bush.

By contrast people who actually served often, like John McCain or Al Gore, are strongly supportive of the military. But they tend to treat military service and action as the serious matters that they are.

The phrase that sums this up best is "chickenhawk".

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#44

Post by notdrunkatall »

nikcub wrote: post #28

I feel bad for Drake, he was facing federal charges and nobody seemed to notice. 89% of federal cases are plead before trial and of those that go to trial 90%+ are found guilty, that is how much the odds were stacked against him. He got nowhere near the attention that he deserves[1[] William Binney is an absolute hero. I have absorbed everything this guy has ever said or done[2]. He was not only employed at the NSA,…

I completely agree, especially about Binney. I've been following what the NSA's doing since the Room 641A scandal broke. I recently wrote a paper on the NSA versus privacy, and as usual, what I found during the course of my research pretty much blew my mind. Binney is a hero as much as Snowden is, as are Drake and Weibe. I've used every opportunity to post this short that the NYT did on Binney, and everyone who's interested in this (and especially everyone who's not) should watch it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/opinion/the-national-secur...

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#45

Post by notdrunkatall »

btilly wrote: post #42
dfc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overwhelming majority of your post but I have to say the draft dodging/deferring comment was a little odd. I think its really tough for us (people who have grown up under an all volunteer service) to pass judgement on how a previous generation dealt with the draft, even more so if we pass those judgements as civilians.

I have never served in the military. But I am old enough that my brother fought in Vietnam (sort of not drafted, it is complicated) and my father was drafted for WW II. I also have relatives serving in the armed forces. (Including, at the moment, 2 nephews.) I have observed what I've seen commented on elsewhere. There is a certain type of person who managed to skip the draft for themselves, and then proceeded to beco…

Also: hypocrite.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#46

Post by notdrunkatall »

nikcub wrote: post #40
krek wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Binney didn't design the system that's currently being used, and that's his whole point. He designed a cheap way to do what the current program does but that would protect people's privacy (in part by not storing all the data that it filters). His point is that the NSA spent billions on a dragnet system that violates privacy and isn't even able to catch terrorists as well as the privacy-respecting system he designed…

In one of his interviews[1] he mentions that after he left and TrailBlazer was abandoned the NSA took what he built in ThinThread but removed the privacy shields he had in place that would encrypt US communications. The rest of the platform is ThinThread (which was a lot cheaper than the failed TrailBlazer project). Also interesting that a lot of the NSA platform is open source. OpenCloud for server management and Ha…

He mentions that here, I believe: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/opinion/the-national-secur...

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#48

Post by jeremyflores »

davidhollander wrote: post #41
jeremyflores wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Cheney's draft dodging status is fair game. He did, after all, co-architect our erroneous invasion and continued occupation of a country that did not actually attack us, so he has no problem sending others to war. Something other draft dodgers were not as directly responsible for.

It's an ad hominem which falls short of hypocrisy or contradiction because the soldiers and contractors sent to Iraq were not conscripted. Surely there are more substantive arguments to be made.

The comparison between Drake and Cheney should be based on the metric of credibility to speak on these matters. Drake has military experience and has put his career and freedom on the line for public disclosure. Cheney actively avoided putting himself in harm's way, then sent people to their deaths, directly profited from it, and will continue to profit off any future militaristic endeavors the US pursues.

Cheney is defending the need for state secrets but has a proven record of benefitting from intelligence that has been obscured from the general public. Motive is extremely important here.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#49

Post by dfc »

jeremyflores wrote: post #36
dfc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overwhelming majority of your post but I have to say the draft dodging/deferring comment was a little odd. I think its really tough for us (people who have grown up under an all volunteer service) to pass judgement on how a previous generation dealt with the draft, even more so if we pass those judgements as civilians.

I think Cheney's draft dodging status is fair game. He did, after all, co-architect our erroneous invasion and continued occupation of a country that did not actually attack us, so he has no problem sending others to war. Something other draft dodgers were not as directly responsible for.

I think the discussion our society is having is important. I do not think we should spend time trying to score ancillary points because something is "fair game." Are Cheney's positions on PRISM really dependent on his service record? Would you be more inclined to agree and support them if they were put forward by Bob Kerrey?

More generally should we only elect candidates who have also served so that we can avoid having a CinC who sends soldiers to battle even though they did not serve? If Cheney had a legitimate 4F during Vietnam would you be more supportive of his decision to invade Iraq?

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#50

Post by dfc »

jeremyflores wrote: post #48
davidhollander wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an ad hominem which falls short of hypocrisy or contradiction because the soldiers and contractors sent to Iraq were not conscripted. Surely there are more substantive arguments to be made.

The comparison between Drake and Cheney should be based on the metric of credibility to speak on these matters. Drake has military experience and has put his career and freedom on the line for public disclosure. Cheney actively avoided putting himself in harm's way, then sent people to their deaths, directly profited from it, and will continue to profit off any future militaristic endeavors the US pursues. Cheney is…

So you are some sort of neo-aristotelian except instead of property ownership you think the credibility of people's opinions is based on years in uniform? Does Ellsberg get partial credit for being a policy analyst at DoD?
Post reply on HN