More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor • Hacker News Board

Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor

#41

Post by temp9251 » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 5:24 AM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #25

nitrogen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you not read the Verizon order? The order that very clearly demands a daily dump of all metadata (source/destination phone numbers, date/time, etc.) for all customers, even those calls wholly within the US?

Additionally it isn;t clear to me if cell site location data generated in order to be able to enable a call would fall under it. If it does, then the order turns our cell phones into Knotts-type tracking beepers.

According to the Guardian article that broke the news, "[a] 2005 court ruling judged that cell site location data – the nearest cell tower a phone was connected to – was also transactional data, and so could potentially fall under the scope of the order."[1]

IANAL but it seems clear that cell site data could be included (since it's held to be transactional data), but it would be limited to the towers connected to when making and ending calls, not a complete timeline. [2]

1. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-record...

2. http://www.steptoe.com/assets/attachments/1948.pdf

Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor

#42

Post by rexf » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 5:26 AM UTC

rquantz wrote: post #33

beedogs wrote: post #30

What really pisses me off is that Democrats seem to support Obama in anything he does; half of them think this kind of shit is perfectly fine, likely because their team is the one doing it. Really sorely disappointing.

What are you talking about? Do you have any evidence for this? Or was it just some democrat you talked to who supported mass surveillance? You think the 30% of Americans who believe Snowden is a patriot are all non-democrats?

WSJ writes:

"A survey ... found that 56% believe that broad-based government tracking of telephone records is acceptable ... More Democrats than Republicans found it acceptable, a reversal of findings in a similar poll taken when George W. Bush was president ..."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732490400457853...

Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor

#43

Post by einhverfr » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 5:36 AM UTC

temp9251 wrote: post #41

einhverfr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally it isn;t clear to me if cell site location data generated in order to be able to enable a call would fall under it. If it does, then the order turns our cell phones into Knotts-type tracking beepers.

According to the Guardian article that broke the news, "[a] 2005 court ruling judged that cell site location data – the nearest cell tower a phone was connected to – was also transactional data, and so could potentially fall under the scope of the order."[1] IANAL but it seems clear that cell site data could be included (since it's held to be transactional data), but it would be limited to the towers connected to whe…

The reading is hard. A careful reading could go either way. The fact is historical cell site location data could arguably fall under the order but does not necessarily.

The question in my mind is what is the purpose for the order. If it is to compel Verizon to do something they don't want to do, then maybe it wouldn't, but if it is to give Verizon cover for what they want to do anyway, then it very well might.

Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor

#44

Post by Qantourisc » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 5:45 AM UTC

Sven7 wrote: post #39

JacksonGariety wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My (very liberal) mother asked me today if I had read David Brooks' piece on Snowden. I said I had and she told me that she agrees with the government surveillance and told me Snowden was a traitor to the American people. I said, "You support PRISM?!" She said, "What's PRISM?" People have no idea. All they know is Snowden, Snowden, Snowden...

I support PRISM and don't think Snowden is a traitor. Is that opinion acceptable? PRISM can't be dismantled, for the same reason no one on the planet has figured out how to dismantle nuclear arsenals. The other guy is doing it too.

Any opinion is acceptable, and in this case the 2 aren't mutually exclusive. Although "but the other guy is doing it too" sound like a bad excuse. This kind of thinking typically leads to escalation. So before using "the other..." better be very very sure it's worth it.

Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor

#45

Post by nextstep » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 5:52 AM UTC

beedogs wrote: post #30

What really pisses me off is that Democrats seem to support Obama in anything he does; half of them think this kind of shit is perfectly fine, likely because their team is the one doing it. Really sorely disappointing.

Yeah, that's absolutely true. And the other half has John McCain and Lindsey Graham saying they're ok with it and they think these programs are necessary. We have two parties, and zero choices. Our country is fucked.

Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor

#46

Post by devcpp » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 6:01 AM UTC

Sven7 wrote: post #39

JacksonGariety wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My (very liberal) mother asked me today if I had read David Brooks' piece on Snowden. I said I had and she told me that she agrees with the government surveillance and told me Snowden was a traitor to the American people. I said, "You support PRISM?!" She said, "What's PRISM?" People have no idea. All they know is Snowden, Snowden, Snowden...

I support PRISM and don't think Snowden is a traitor. Is that opinion acceptable? PRISM can't be dismantled, for the same reason no one on the planet has figured out how to dismantle nuclear arsenals. The other guy is doing it too.

This is not comparable at all. Nuclear arsenals cannot be dismantled because of the benefits of MAD and the other guy might be considered in a position of force.

In our case, PRISM can be dismantled without the other guy (i.e the population) retaliating in any way or any enemy country gaining any advantage out of that.

Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor

#47

Post by nknighthb » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 6:24 AM UTC

beedogs wrote: post #30

What really pisses me off is that Democrats seem to support Obama in anything he does; half of them think this kind of shit is perfectly fine, likely because their team is the one doing it. Really sorely disappointing.

> Democrats seem to support Obama in anything he does; half of them think this kind of shit is perfectly fine

Did you really not recognize the contradiction even as you typed this sentence?

Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor

#48

Post by D_Alex » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 6:36 AM UTC

alexholehouse wrote: post #28

So, in summary, the difference between a patriot and a traitor is just PR. Pun intended.

Wow... good job! But now that Snowden left the US, he must be an ex-patriot. The traditional response is an extradition request.

Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor

#49

Post by Sven7 » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 7:01 AM UTC

devcpp wrote: post #46

Sven7 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support PRISM and don't think Snowden is a traitor. Is that opinion acceptable? PRISM can't be dismantled, for the same reason no one on the planet has figured out how to dismantle nuclear arsenals. The other guy is doing it too.

This is not comparable at all . Nuclear arsenals cannot be dismantled because of the benefits of MAD and the other guy might be considered in a position of force. In our case, PRISM can be dismantled without the other guy (i.e the population) retaliating in any way or any enemy country gaining any advantage out of that.

It won't happen. Data today holds the same value as nukes during the cold war. A whole lot of intellectual and emotional evolution has to occur, across entire populations, before dismantling either becomes feasible.

I have a feeling this incident is going to start a big data arms race, mostly because, many governments in other country are going to start investing in their own NSA's.

The only thing that can control it, is the economics involved.

Re: More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor

#50

Post by Sven7 » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 7:04 AM UTC

Qantourisc wrote: post #44

Sven7 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support PRISM and don't think Snowden is a traitor. Is that opinion acceptable? PRISM can't be dismantled, for the same reason no one on the planet has figured out how to dismantle nuclear arsenals. The other guy is doing it too.

Any opinion is acceptable, and in this case the 2 aren't mutually exclusive. Although "but the other guy is doing it too" sound like a bad excuse. This kind of thinking typically leads to escalation. So before using "the other..." better be very very sure it's worth it.

Ofcourse it leads to escalation. What do you think the reaction outside the US to PRISM is? Are other governments, now that they know the extent to what the US is upto, going to reduce data collection and strengthen privacy laws?

Give me a break.