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All calls in the Netherlands are stored, indexed and searched for keywords

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Re: All calls in the Netherlands are stored, indexed and searched for keywords

#41

Post by yread »

haarts wrote: post #26
yread wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious? Dutch jihadists are fighting in Syria, the Detroit underwear bomber boarded his plane at Amsterdam Schiphol and organized crime is a serious problem in the Netherlands (see http://www.nokturnis.net/nokwiki/tiki-index.php?page=Organiz... )

I think it goes a bit far to call a couple of nutjobs 'jihadists'. And the fact that someone traveled through one of our airports doesn't mean we have a structural problem.

Of course they are nutjobs and you could probably call them other names as well, but my point is that they went to Syria to do 'jihad', so they are jihadists.

Re: All calls in the Netherlands are stored, indexed and searched for keywords

#42

Post by mindcrime »

damo7 wrote: post #39
lucb1e wrote: post #2

I call bullshit. Phone metadata is saved since forever yes, but stored at ISPs, not at government organisations. There are strict regulations regarding the privacy of voice data over the phone (VoIP does not count as such though), and I don't think the secret service and military secret service (AIVD and MIVD) can do anything they like. They have more permissions, such as demanding passwords for encrypted files as lo…

Also all telecom companies must provide to CIOT all new and updated registered customer buying MSISDN's. If it is postpaid, all details including address, full name and D.O.B is given, prepaid also, but that can depend on how the customer has purchased the SIM. Anyhow, why does it matter that much. If you have something to hide, then I'd be sweating. If not, who really gives a sh*te if people are tapping into our dig…

If you have something to hide, then I'd be sweating. If not, who really gives a shte if people are tapping into our digital lives.*

Because your "something to hide" may be something that is currently legal / acceptable / non-embarrassing / etc., but becomes illegal / unacceptable / embarrassing / threatening to those in power / etc. in the future. And because governments have been known to collect data, nominally for legal reasons, and use it for political purposes, to threaten, harass and intimidate people based on their political affiliation.

All of that said, it really comes down to the principle of the thing. I've said - and will continue to say - plenty of things that could endanger me in some hypothetical future. I actually tend to be very public with most of my thoughts, rants, ramblings, and what-not, as I have an attitude of "If you don't like what I say, fuck you" directed at the government and pretty much everybody else. I have almost nothing to hide. BUT... not everybody has that attitude, and some people care more about keeping their "stuff" private. And even I want the option of keeping certain things private when the need arises. Just because I'm, say, 99% transparent (whatever that means) doesn't lessen the importance of that "1% secret". And that's the rub... everybody probably has at least "1%" of things that they do want to keep private/secret, now or in the future. And they should have the option to do that if they want.

Re: All calls in the Netherlands are stored, indexed and searched for keywords

#43

Post by muyuu »

toyg wrote: post #35
muyuu wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably the most harassing airport in Europe. I haven't been to all airports but I've been to many (>50) and Shiphol was the worst. Still better than the US though, if you're an EU citizen at least.

Maybe my POV is skewed by having MAN as home airport - security here is horrendous, slow, invasive and obsessed with trying every new braindead security scheme under the sun, including the infamous pornscanners. Schiphol was not that bad the few times I've used it (last three weeks ago), IIRC they do the actual scan at gates which I think is always the superior option. Completely agree on the EU/US comparison, of cou…

I've been to Shithole 4 times (I try to avoid it though). I've been subjected to the pornscanners every time.

Re: All calls in the Netherlands are stored, indexed and searched for keywords

#44

Post by btilly »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #34
haarts wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storing voice (audio) data is not what the article says. I'd imagine you transcribe the audio to text and search in that. Storing text is incredibly easy. Besides you can throw away 99.9% of the data almost immediately. I'm actually curious how much text data this would be per day; number of call minutes * average number of words per minute. I'd be surprised if that wouldn't fit in a reasonable cluster.

I'm sorry, but do we really think that machine transcription of millions of cell phone conversations is worth anything? How can anyone believe that after using google voice?

So you use a hybrid approach. The text transcription can be fed into programs that look for specific phrases, build up social networks, etc. And then anyone you decide you actually want to monitor you keep audio as well as the machine transcription.

The machine transcription remains incredibly valuable for broad surveillance even though it is highly imperfect.

Re: All calls in the Netherlands are stored, indexed and searched for keywords

#45

Post by jvdongen »

yread wrote: post #11
lostlogin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? So you can have attacks on your country without requiring the world to go into lockdown, without having to invade several countries and without having to molest every traveler?

The dutch took part in both operation enduring freedom and iraqi freedom. So you could say they did invade several countries.

In fact the Dutch owned New York once (then called New Amsterdam ;-) until they effectively traded it with the British for Suriname and some spare change.

And that whole Dutch East Indies and Indonesia thing still has some repercussions till this day.

Re: All calls in the Netherlands are stored, indexed and searched for keywords

#46

Post by jvdongen »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #23
guard-of-terra wrote: post #3

I fail to understand why tiny tranquil european countries without serious dangers of terrorism or organized crime even do this. They have nothing to reveal by intrecepting communications, why spend money and public credit on this?

Going off on a tangent, perhaps the Netherlands doesn't have serious terrorism or organized crime /because/ of these measures, quelling them before they even go public?

Well, that's the million dollar/euro question isn't it? It's a bit hard to verify with all the secrecy going on. And arguably without some level of secrecy you cannot have effective intelligence. It's a bit of a catch-22.

Re: All calls in the Netherlands are stored, indexed and searched for keywords

#47

Post by willholloway »

roel_v wrote: post #33
lostlogin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? So you can have attacks on your country without requiring the world to go into lockdown, without having to invade several countries and without having to molest every traveler?

"without requiring the world to go into lockdown, without having to invade several countries and without having to molest every traveler?" Have you ever been here? There are cameras on all highways that recognize license plates and track the movement over every car on the road network (cfr: the ease with which they tracked the whereabouts of the father who killed his children a few weeks ago), it has the most phone t…

Fitting Ferengi Quotes:

Rule of Acquisition 34: War is good for business. Rule of Acquisition 35: Peace is good for business.

Re: All calls in the Netherlands are stored, indexed and searched for keywords

#48

Post by lostlogin »

johansch wrote: post #9
lostlogin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? So you can have attacks on your country without requiring the world to go into lockdown, without having to invade several countries and without having to molest every traveler?

I agree that is irrational behavior. But saying the Netherlands is tranquil in this aspect is wrong, was my point.

My post was petty and sarcastic - however the Dutch don't seem to have the penchant for blasting the world with their dramas, but this may be a language barrier.. I did find the Netherlands to be tranquil - however I've only spent a week there, and didn't move around much. I didn't notice the things that have been discussed here over the last few day, and most are very disturbing.

Re: All calls in the Netherlands are stored, indexed and searched for keywords

#49

Post by lostlogin »

roel_v wrote: post #33
lostlogin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? So you can have attacks on your country without requiring the world to go into lockdown, without having to invade several countries and without having to molest every traveler?

"without requiring the world to go into lockdown, without having to invade several countries and without having to molest every traveler?" Have you ever been here? There are cameras on all highways that recognize license plates and track the movement over every car on the road network (cfr: the ease with which they tracked the whereabouts of the father who killed his children a few weeks ago), it has the most phone t…

Yes I have visited - only for a week or so and I didn't travel around much. I flew in from London, and didn't notice the cameras etc which I did in the UK. I thought they were bad there. My sarcastic post has had a few very good replies. The disturbing behaviour of the state mentioned by you and others is oddly fascinating. Why do it? On a pure cost versus benefit analysis, how can it possibly be justified? Those that know The Netherlands have radically changed my views over the last week with facts and anecdotes about this. Please keep posting, I for one have been educated.

Re: All calls in the Netherlands are stored, indexed and searched for keywords

#50

Post by SigmundA »

haarts wrote: post #24
ohwp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree this is a bullshit story. They only store conversations when they have an eavesdrop approval. A lot of people underestimate the amount of storage it would take to store all voice data.

Storing voice (audio) data is not what the article says. I'd imagine you transcribe the audio to text and search in that. Storing text is incredibly easy. Besides you can throw away 99.9% of the data almost immediately. I'm actually curious how much text data this would be per day; number of call minutes * average number of words per minute. I'd be surprised if that wouldn't fit in a reasonable cluster.

You underestimate the CPU power needed to do this. The Netherlands has a population of 16 million, by comparison Google voice has about 1.4 million users. This is an order of magnitude difference. On top of this they only transcribe voicemail not all calls. What is the ratio of calls to voicemail?

Transcribing all voice calls to text in the Netherlands computationally could easily be two orders of magnitude more difficult than Google voice.

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