Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Letter To A Young Programmer Considering A Startup

al3x.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 162 posts

Re: Letter To A Young Programmer Considering A Startup

#41

Post by dustingetz »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #35
dustingetz wrote: post #3

one point al3x didn't talk to: not all startups will teach you to be an awesome engineer. If a startup is really hiring the best of best, a less experienced programmer is not likely to make the cut. Ever look at your code from 6 months, a year, 5 years ago? and how bad it is? Many tech startups don't have time for that, the quality of your work can make or break a startup. Elite startups want "ex-googlers". So if you…

I run a bootstrapped company and we hire the cheapest engineers we can find. I interview for competence in the one thing they understand, and then just how fast they learn. I cannot overstate the number of people out there that are incredibly smart, but can't describe basic information like how the HTTP protocol works. It is completely baffling. These people can be explained how the protocol works in 10 minutes, and…

i totally understand and respect your position and that's definitely a strategy that can work.

The other end of the spectrum is, you could contract someone like Tony Morris[1] at $250 an hour for 20 hours a week, and he will build your product faster than a team of untrained engineers, or more likely, build a product that untrained engineers aren't capable of building, with a defect rate close to zero.

Not every strategy is right for every business, but generally, the harder the technical challenges, the more cost effective it is to pay for a superstar.

[1] http://tmorris.net/posts.html

Re: Letter To A Young Programmer Considering A Startup

#42

Post by 205guy »

I feel the OP raised 2 strawmen:

1) Many jobs are at startups now, and those startups are roughly similar, therefore it's not cool anymore ("is the novelty even there").

That is just bad logic. It may be that startups replicated high pressure low gratification corporate jobs, but that's not inherent in the argument that there are more startup jobs. It could also be the case that the tech economy has really shifted from large corporations to small agile (and sometimes fun to work at) startups.

2) Startup jobs turn into corporate jobs, so you shouldn't take them in the first place.

That change is not a given, nor is it that the change will be done poorly, nor is it that the employee won't want the change by then. Anyways, if you get 1-3 years of startup experience that you enjoy, make contacts, have a chance at a payout, then there's nothing wrong with taking the startup job with the knowledge it may change and you may want out later--in fact, in every US employment contract, it's a given that the employee or the company may change their minds later.

I do agree with the idea that we need to demystify the startup scene. Being beholden to a VC is no different than to a corporate middle manager, they're both trying to carve out their little empires with your work. I think the interpersonal cost is real in certain cases, and the comment about fetishizing disruption is right on. But the 2 logical errors above weaken the message, especially since they are above the more lucid observations.

Re: Letter To A Young Programmer Considering A Startup

#43

Post by fixxer »

Really liked this part:

    "As there was in the first dot com bubble
    there is a current proliferation of startups,
    incubators, accelerators, angel/seed funding,
    and so forth. ... accompanied by a shared set
    of values, norms, and language."
I'm currently doing a start-up. I went the University incubator route and have regretted it ever since. Feels so pedantic...

Re: Letter To A Young Programmer Considering A Startup

#44

Post by jcampbell1 »

dustingetz wrote: post #41
jcampbell1 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run a bootstrapped company and we hire the cheapest engineers we can find. I interview for competence in the one thing they understand, and then just how fast they learn. I cannot overstate the number of people out there that are incredibly smart, but can't describe basic information like how the HTTP protocol works. It is completely baffling. These people can be explained how the protocol works in 10 minutes, and…

i totally understand and respect your position and that's definitely a strategy that can work. The other end of the spectrum is, you could contract someone like Tony Morris[1] at $250 an hour for 20 hours a week, and he will build your product faster than a team of untrained engineers, or more likely, build a product that untrained engineers aren't capable of building, with a defect rate close to zero. Not every stra…

> with a defect rate close to zero.

Most of our defects are not software defects, they are product/marketing/strategy/SEO/SEM defects.

If American Express wants to launch some app with defined features, then Tony sounds like a great guy. We kinda understand our customers, but not really. We throw pasta at the wall and see if it sticks. Once it sticks, I can hire Tony to make it great. Tony will never accept us as a client for good reason.

Re: Letter To A Young Programmer Considering A Startup

#45

Post by oblique63 »

dustingetz wrote: post #41
jcampbell1 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run a bootstrapped company and we hire the cheapest engineers we can find. I interview for competence in the one thing they understand, and then just how fast they learn. I cannot overstate the number of people out there that are incredibly smart, but can't describe basic information like how the HTTP protocol works. It is completely baffling. These people can be explained how the protocol works in 10 minutes, and…

i totally understand and respect your position and that's definitely a strategy that can work. The other end of the spectrum is, you could contract someone like Tony Morris[1] at $250 an hour for 20 hours a week, and he will build your product faster than a team of untrained engineers, or more likely, build a product that untrained engineers aren't capable of building, with a defect rate close to zero. Not every stra…

Yeah, but I think the over-arching idea that the OP was getting at, was "what if we can breed these 'superstars'?"

That would certainly seem feasible if you interview for personality traits, interests and learning skills, more than actual/concrete knowledge and working skills. And of course, this would be a lot more cost-effective as well. In that case, I would say that the key would lie in paying more attention to human psychology/intelligence research than to tech blogs/circles to find out more about 'superstars'.

Re: Letter To A Young Programmer Considering A Startup

#46

Post by integraton »

sliverstorm wrote: post #25
Zimahl wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But coming to SF and floundering around is no better than aimlessly moving to LA to become a movie star. Not to be nit-picky but getting start-up experience isn't quite the same as going to casting calls while working at Olive Garden to make ends meet.

What about when you work at a no-name software shop to make ends meet while you pitch to VCs to get your own startup off the ground? The analogy may be more apt than it first seems! ;)

Except that working at a no-name software shop will pay significantly better, and then you can take your SF developer experience to middle America and get decent paying corporate job and a McMansion.

Re: Letter To A Young Programmer Considering A Startup

#47

Post by franciscoprat »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #39
RockyMcNuts wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most important thing in your first job is your boss. You are going to learn a massive amount, not just the job skills, but how to work in a group/company. The distance is massive between learning the right things from someone who does things in a first class way, and the wrong things from someone mediocre or worse. Second is the company. You join the right company, and it's a solid growing company, or a rocket ship,…

In a flat organization, your boss is going to be irrelevant. I would gauge a company by whether the interviewers teach or belittle. I personally find belittling okay, and can learn in that environment. "fuck you, if you are such an expert, then you can explain it to me. If you can't explain it, then you are probably full of shit." I have no problem saying that, but most people won't/shouldn't. I get high from learnin…

A manager can be a mentor regardless of the type of organization. What is important if you want to improve a particular skill set is that the people that are managing you truly understand what it takes to do your job well and can provide feedback on what you are not doing well from a "do-ers" perspective - more of an apprenticeship model.

I have personally found that mentors are great for career advice and resolving questions, but never have enough "skin in the game" to invest their time in my development.

Re: Letter To A Young Programmer Considering A Startup

#49

Post by dchichkov »

RockyMcNuts wrote: post #37
jcampbell1 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run a bootstrapped company and we hire the cheapest engineers we can find. I interview for competence in the one thing they understand, and then just how fast they learn. I cannot overstate the number of people out there that are incredibly smart, but can't describe basic information like how the HTTP protocol works. It is completely baffling. These people can be explained how the protocol works in 10 minutes, and…

Most important thing in your first job is your boss. You are going to learn a massive amount, not just the job skills, but how to work in a group/company. The distance is massive between learning the right things from someone who does things in a first class way, and the wrong things from someone mediocre or worse. Second is the company. You join the right company, and it's a solid growing company, or a rocket ship,…

Most important thing in your first job is that the team is well balanced. And that you are collaborating with people who are amazing, rich and had history of doing great things before. [As to your boss, of course having a nightmarish boss fresh from some traditional caste system could be disastrous and can end up haunting you. But that's an outlier case.]

Re: Letter To A Young Programmer Considering A Startup

#50

Post by mbillie1 »

oblique63 wrote: post #45
dustingetz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i totally understand and respect your position and that's definitely a strategy that can work. The other end of the spectrum is, you could contract someone like Tony Morris[1] at $250 an hour for 20 hours a week, and he will build your product faster than a team of untrained engineers, or more likely, build a product that untrained engineers aren't capable of building, with a defect rate close to zero. Not every stra…

Yeah, but I think the over-arching idea that the OP was getting at, was "what if we can breed these 'superstars'?" That would certainly seem feasible if you interview for personality traits, interests and learning skills, more than actual/concrete knowledge and working skills. And of course, this would be a lot more cost-effective as well. In that case, I would say that the key would lie in paying more attention to h…

> That would certainly seem feasible if you interview for personality traits, interests and learning skills, more than actual/concrete knowledge and working skills.

That's a good chunk of the way we (ThoughtWorks) interview, along with general smarts and good company fit. It's easier to teach a very smart person [language x, skillset y] than it is to teach a random person who knows [language x, skillset y] how to be very smart.

Post reply on HN