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Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

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Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#41

Post by spaghetti »

ultimoo wrote: post #8

I believe I am a good engineer, I have heard generally positive things about my professional work, have a college degree, etc. I am however terrified of programming challenges (topcoder, spoj, interview-street, etc.) I have tried solving some problems there using Ruby (back when it was 1.8.x, too slow for these kind of problems) and given up. Maybe I should give it a shot with C. Any ideas how to start, considering t…

My experience participating in TopCoder SRMs (quick algorithm development competitions) has payed off quite a bit when it comes to white board coding style interviews (both as the interviewee and the interviewer). Just thought I'd share a few pointers:

- participating in SRMs is great practice for interviews because you're forced to learn to think clearly while under intense time pressure.

- The TopCoder tutorials are a great resource. In addition to review of useful mathematics, data structures and algorithms they'll give you an introduction into how to participate well. For example time management between the easy, medium and hard problems.

- You have four language choices for SRMs. My preference is C#. I like using Visual Studio because the auto-complete/intellisense comes in handy when you have to write a bit of boilerplate code (like "new Dictionary();". I've also used MonoDevelop on OS X. It worked well. iirc almost all problems are solveable using C# except a few where, to my knowledge, C++ was necessary. Read-up on Petr's advice. I believe he's a fan of C#.

- My knowledge of C# isn't particularly deep so don't let learning a new language scare you away. imo you just have to effectively use dynamic arrays (List), hashtables (Dictionary), static arrays and strings. Also a sorted key-value store like SortedDictionary comes in handy once in a while.

- Last bit of advice: solve lots of problems and have fun! You can access a vast archive of problems from previous competitions and match editorials which usually have decent explanations for the problem solutions.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#42

Post by mc-lovin »

gems wrote: post #33
mc-lovin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We should be discussing something like how we're going to help people If helping people is a good motive, why isn't helping yourself? While people must strike a balance between doing what benefits themselves, and what benefits others, that is basically a personal decision. People who work at Google and other tech companies pay taxes, and benefit society in many ways through the positive externalities. It's not for y…

>If helping people is a good motive, why isn't helping yourself? It's a matter of what you think is right. Do you want to have a philosophical discussion? >If you state it on HN, you can deal with people disagreeing with it, without getting annoyed. I'm getting annoyed because the first responder was almost offended that I expressed a belief on what I think is right. I don't care if we disagree, but don't pretend lik…

>It's a matter of what you think is right. Do you want to have a philosophical discussion?

Certainly, you started a philosophical discussion with your top post, so wouldn't you want to have this discussion?

>I'm getting annoyed because the first responder was almost offended that I expressed a belief on what I think is right. I don't care if we disagree, but don't pretend like I'm encroaching your rights because I'm asserting myself.

Ok, I see your point, but this is a complex issue in itself, let's drop it.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#44

Post by lawnchair_larry »

anxx wrote: post #10

My Google interviewer was a HS-educated guy. My parents couldn't believe it. I tend to think - if he is as good at the job as me, what does his education matter? Why should I be offended that a HS-educated guy is in the same room with me? Education is meant to produce a difference in job performance; it's good for the worker, not directly to the employer. If I with my college degree can't get a better job than a HS-g…

I was on a team of about 10 that had at least one of each: HS dropout, HS diploma, bachelor CS, masters CS, Ph.D. CS.

Most people weren't really aware - many came from other teams, so they didn't interview each other, and it just never came up. Everyone is just known by their title/responsibilities.

There were two people in particular that were carrying a lot of that team. Not only did they do the most work, they fixed broken design, and other engineers relied on them for support as subject matter experts. One of them happened to be the HS grad, call him Sam, another had a BSc.

It came to be interview time for a new hire, and the hiring engineer (head engineer made team hiring decisions there, manager just signed) asked me for feedback on the candidates. "That guy? He didn't even have a degree!", was his response, even though this guy did objectively better in the interviews than anyone else.

Confused that he would be surprised that I would vote for the clear winner, I said, "Huh, since when has that been a consideration here? Sam is one of our strongest contributors and his lack of a degree sure doesn't seem to be a problem, right?"

"What do you mean? He only has his Bachelor's? Wow! Really?" he said, completely shocked.

"No, Sam doesn't have any degree. He didn't even go to college at all."

After some feelings of both shock and skepticism, he muttered something about being uncomfortable with it, and legal liability, then walked off.

Just a few weeks prior, I watched this guy rave to the VP like a fanboy about how smart Sam was. His favorite employee, until then judged on his merits over the last year, was perhaps not up to his standards now. Boggled my mind. I always thought that a degree is one of a few positive signals that you have a worthy candidate. If someone is already proven, how can it possibly matter?

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#45

Post by callmeed »

Thanks for writing this. I was one of the original people who asked about this in your previous post.

Working at Google is something that intrigues me. After doing (my own) startups for 10+ years, it's one of the few big companies I'd consider working for. It's also one of the few reasons I've considered finishing the last year of my CS degree.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#46

Post by davidbyttow »

zerr wrote: post #32

David, one question - what percentage of the knowledge acquired only to prepare for the interview did you actually used at the job?

Hard to quantify really. Often, it's not the exact knowledge that you use, but the byproduct of knowing something that helps you learn something new. For example, learning the nuances of a new language became much easier once I took a stab at implementing my own compilers.

I still had a LOT to learn, and Google is a fantastic place to soak up as much knowledge as possible. Mostly everything I learned about distributed systems came from Google.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#47

Post by vinkelhake »

About one and a half year ago, a long time IRC buddy from the states suggested that I'd apply to Google. I was a 30-something programmer with a wife and kid who had spent the last 12 years working on trading systems in Europe. I decided to go ahead. Both because I wanted to see what the interview process was actually like and if I could pull it off. Going to work for Google seemed very distant at the time.

After telephone interviews and on-site interviews in Mountain View (got to meet my friend again on Google's dime!) I got the offer. Up until that point it had been "what the heck, we'll see what happens". Now it was real. We decided to pack up our stuff and leave the country and now I work at Google in MTV.

The only reason I mention all this is because I don't have a degree either. Getting into the United States turned out to be more tricky than getting getting into Google.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#48

Post by lawnchair_larry »

gems wrote: post #4
jamesaguilar wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too know what other people should want to do with their lives.

My opinion is that it (exactly what I stated, nothing more) is most likely a manifestation of insecurity, rather than a product of anything that's not superficial (desire to help people, for example). I'm not telling you how to lead your life (a fiat), I'm offering an opinion with a suggestion. I give zero shits if what I said applies to you and you decide to stay on the same course. You should get that straight.

I feel like those statements against Google are also most likely a manifestation of insecurity.

A lot of people want to work at Google, and there are always some who have to point out that it's not the ultimate prize, reserved for the best. After all, if it were a universal goal, and you haven't attained it, you must not be the best. The insecure person's solution? You don't work there, because although you could if you wanted to, you have reasons why it isn't worth aspiring to.

Although I agree with your statement, being compelled to call it out demonstrates insecurity. To be frank, some days I wonder if my own insecurity is the reason I tell myself that I don't want to work at Google ;) I'd be curious how many detractors could get an offer from Google and reject it.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#50

Post by davidbyttow »

surano wrote: post #43

but the goal behind TopCoder problems should be improving thinking skills, not preparing interviews, I think. Because not the actions which determines more our future, but the intentions, I think

TopCoder problems quickly become pattern recognition and that becomes (brain) muscle memory.

Knowing exact solutions to exact problems is not helpful.

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