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How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

nytimes.com

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Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#41

Post by EliRivers »

ktavera wrote: post #4

I'm getting really tired of this ignorant "tech is sexist" garbage. women represent a minority of the already small pool of CS graduates. This is not due to discrimination but to individual choice of what a student wants to do with their life. Fewer women CS grads means a smaller ratio of women to men in the tech industry. The author blindly says that VC's want "a couple of guys that can build an app in a weekend". V…

I find it impossible to believe that a tech company would turn down a brilliant "woman programmer" just because she was a woman.

This is a failure of your imagination and experience. "Tech companies" don't turn down people. People turn down people. People sometimes turn down people because they're women.

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#42

Post by yummyfajitas »

simonv3 wrote: post #35
revelation wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument was not an attempt in what you so non-chalantly call "oppression Olympics", but rather to illustrate what some people might ascribe to discrimination is really just common-place. You are also misunderstanding the "small pool of women CS graduates". It's not to suggest that theres no discrimination, but that theres possibly not much you can do at the stage of post-graduation. That this is a result of dis…

Think about all the kids who don't see women in the tech fields and thus don't see it as a viable career path. The "small pool of women CS graduates" argument is bunkt because CS is a meritocracy - so many men prove themselves through code rather than having gone to a college, and the only reason women don't is because they're discouraged at every turn - upon being hired, in the work place, at social gatherings. Why…

Why does the graduates argument pose a problem for women while its so often celebrated when men skipped college or dropped out of college and became successful within our field?

Is there a large pool of women who download python, work "learn python the hard way", and put some repos on github?

If not, then just as there is a small pool of female CS graduates, there is also a small pool of female autodidacts.

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#43

Post by dsr_ »

For what it's worth, I'm looking for a senior sysadmin in Cambridge, MA. I have not yet seen a single resume from an identifiable female, and would certainly welcome a good candidate. (Of any gender, or whatever: gender is not linked to Linux and networking skills in any manner I'm aware of.)

Could it be that my ad is putting women off? I don't know. I'll ask our existing female employees.

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#44

Post by greenyoda »

jdp23 wrote: post #31

Somewhat off-topic, but: Her novel "The Bug" is good reading; it captures the frustration of trying to chase down an intermittent impossible-to-reproduce bug.

And it's one of the few novels that realistically portrays the lives of software developers. The book is set in the mid-1980s, so it's also an interesting look back into programming in an earlier era (nostalgic for those of us who were there).

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#45

Post by [deleted] »

lomegor wrote: post #13

Wow, it seems most of the comment here, as of now, decided to overlook the parts of the article that explicitly state problems that are most suffered by women. For example, how this woman had a boss who stroke her hair, or how another boss hated to hire women. That kind of pressure does not exist for most men in the industry. Yes, men suffer from high performance demands in business, but this is not oppression Olympi…

[deleted]

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#46

Post by jvm »

andyl wrote: post #32

Yet another article on Gender politics. Where is the advocacy for black/hispanic/old programmers? Having said that, I wish there were less politics on HN. I read "Hacker News" for technology and startups, not social engineering.

Considering sexism and racism in your own industry to be "special interest" topics of no interest is probably the surest sign of being a proud beneficiary of those dynamics. They're of paramount concern to anyone who doesn't benefit. I'm not at all disagreeing that more advocacy based on race would be useful too, but I do disagree vehemently with the idea that the solution is to cut off discussion.

If you're wondering why as a young or male or white person with no "political" concern for the rights of others would still consider this useful information, the answer is that bright women and minorities are underpriced and undervalued, and understanding how to create a workplace that respects them will allow you to attract the best talent.

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#47

Post by babarock »

simonv3 wrote: post #33
babarock wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you curious why the majority of programmers have dark hair or brown eyes? Sometimes it doesn't matter. I do not necessarily agree with my grandparent comment, but are you advocating going out of your ways to find a problem out of statistics? I'm also fed up with the whole "sexism in tech" bla bla. I don't want more women in tech. I want more talented, more dynamic, more interested or more passionate people in…

>Now we're afraid to talk at a conference or at the office. We never make any joke that might be remotely sexual around female coworkers (note that my female friends usually take it really well). Welcome to how it feels to be a woman, or a person of color, or gay, or any other person who his regularly discriminated against by society and a culture that elevates the white male simply for being white and male. By ignor…

"Welcome to how it feels to be a woman, or a person of color, or gay, or any other person who his regularly discriminated against by society and a culture that elevates the white male simply for being white and male." I'm not white. At all. I understand discrimination for having been at both ends on several occasions.

"By ignoring the problem and not talking about it, you're perpetuating it." Either I agree with you or I'm part of the problem? And you call me narrow minded!

"Every time that you don't say something, or you make an argument like this one, you are sending the message to people who are being discriminated against that the people who say something sexist are okay to do so." Did you even read my comment? I said I'm not spending time pondering why there aren't women in tech, because I don't necessarily want more women in tech. That's, by definition, the opposite of sexist.

Do I think women in tech face some challenges that men don't? yes. (Incidentally, I also think that men in tech face challenges that women don't. It goes both ways). What I'm fed up with is people instrumentalizing the sexism issue to create more drama, problems, and good ol' American hypocrisy (we prefer the term "political correctness").

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#48

Post by simonv3 »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #42
simonv3 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about all the kids who don't see women in the tech fields and thus don't see it as a viable career path. The "small pool of women CS graduates" argument is bunkt because CS is a meritocracy - so many men prove themselves through code rather than having gone to a college, and the only reason women don't is because they're discouraged at every turn - upon being hired, in the work place, at social gatherings. Why…

Why does the graduates argument pose a problem for women while its so often celebrated when men skipped college or dropped out of college and became successful within our field? Is there a large pool of women who download python, work "learn python the hard way", and put some repos on github? If not, then just as there is a small pool of female CS graduates, there is also a small pool of female autodidacts.

Good job! You've discovered that the problem isn't one of women not getting into colleges.

Edit: I'm not saying it's not part of the problem, but the problem is obviously not just that.

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#49

Post by simonv3 »

babarock wrote: post #47
simonv3 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now we're afraid to talk at a conference or at the office. We never make any joke that might be remotely sexual around female coworkers (note that my female friends usually take it really well). Welcome to how it feels to be a woman, or a person of color, or gay, or any other person who his regularly discriminated against by society and a culture that elevates the white male simply for being white and male. By ignor…

"Welcome to how it feels to be a woman, or a person of color, or gay, or any other person who his regularly discriminated against by society and a culture that elevates the white male simply for being white and male." I'm not white. At all. I understand discrimination for having been at both ends on several occasions. "By ignoring the problem and not talking about it, you're perpetuating it." Either I agree with you…

"Either I agree with you or I'm part of the problem? And you call me narrow minded!"

Yep. I'm pretty narrow minded when it comes to thinking everyone deserves the same chances as I got.

"Did you even read my comment? I said I'm not spending time pondering why there aren't women in tech, because I don't necessarily want more women in tech. That's, by definition, the opposite of sexist."

Is it? You're letting the status quo be because you don't think it's having an effect on the tech we produce? On the problems we're trying to solve? You think that people not mentioning repression, how they are being made to feel uncomfortable and not at ease, is a great way to produce the best products?

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#50

Post by joyeuse6701 »

Replace programmer with nearly any profession and replace women with any minority group in that profession during the 80s and the article will largely be the same. It's the same old story (which is disturbing on a few levels). Male programmers will be defensive because they are villains in this anecdote. The article polarized men as evil and women as good, their perspective of reality does not align with this post 2000 femininist narrative, which is why so many bristle at articles like this. However I'm sure male or female programmers can empathize with the misery of a belittle workplace environment. It's frustrating and definitely can urge you to lash out.
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