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Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

vagendamag.blogspot.co.uk

41–50 of 82 posts

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#41
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ideal or not, hazing and bullying has worked for countless millennia to distinguish those you can rely on in a tight spot from those you cannot. The more dangerous the circumstances, the harder becoming accepted by a group seems to be. It's just how humans are. You're an intelligent guy, surely you realise that this can be used to justify any number of barbaric, animalistic behaviours. I could make up a list of luri…

I know I know, bullying is not okay and I agree. But the fact of the matter is we as humans want people to "pay their dues". We are always going to find a way of ensuring that happens.

One thing I do notice is that the sort of places that participate in more "Hazing" type behavior do often have a keener sense of loyalty and justice, perhaps because there is a stronger bond between people.

Rather than the typical corporate america style "rat race" where everyone is very polite but happy to stab each other in the back for their own aims.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#42
post #4

I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask. The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. Reading this, it doesn't…

Well, it's not exactly the same, is it? Firstly, when straight men make gay jokes at each other, everyone knows it isn't true, it's just a joke. Straight sexual jokes are more likely to have a component of truth to them, which makes them must less pleasant to receive. Jokes between men are part of how men establish pecking orders, but sexual jokes are part of how men signal their attraction to women. Unwanted sexual advances feel unpleasantly intrusive. They're supposed to feel that way. It's a part of human sexuality - we're all strongly motivated to push for our own sexual autonomy.

Secondly, there's the fact that these jokes single her out. She's the only one getting sexual and sexist jokes, so that makes her a special target. If it were all those men making constant gay and sissy jokes to a gay man, you wouldn't think twice about calling it bullying. Hazing becomes bullying if one person gets singled out.

Bullying with a sexual component is straight up sexual harassment. Maybe it isn't meant that way, but that's exactly what it is. A lot of bullying exists because dumb people don't think about what they are doing. "It's just a joke," they say. But it's not. It's the same joke, every day, from everyone. This is exactly the kind of situation where an employer has to step in and tell everyone to grow up and leave it at home. And when I say they have to, I mean it's the law, and they're going to get sued.

Also, the less direct sexism the writer faces show that she is not being treated like the men. The assumption that she is lost or trespassing because she is a lone woman on a building site is pretty sexist. Sure, women working on building sites are rare, but so are women getting lost on building sites. The whole asking if she was "fit" e-mail conversation was cringe inducing - and completely not how a man would be treated.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#43
post #4

I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask. The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. Reading this, it doesn't…

all I see here are men treating a woman exactly like they treat other men.

I think you mean "men physically smaller than themselves". This is how morons, not men, organise themselves.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#44
post #40
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there are two. 1. I was out with a group of female friends. Them being 3 to 4 females who have known each other for ages, me being the newcomer. I got the distinct feeling that men are walking penises. (granted they were all in their early twenties) 2. Living with my mum and sister (and female cat). Every day I am reminded that a man is incapable of tying his own shoes without a woman's help. We are these helple…

You seem to be all over this thread saying "oh well this is bad but men also have it equally bad sexism is exaggerated etc etc". I agree that women can be shitty to men. But men, in general, can be far shittier to women. Being patronised by your female relatives is a completely different league to having sexual abuse shouted at you by strangers (strangers who should be subordinate to your professional expertise). And…

I'm saying this isn't a gender issue. This is a basic human psychology issue. This is the way humans behave, regardless of gender. Gender doesn't even have anything to do with it, gender just defines the specific words used in the overall pattern.

In the article men are making fun of a woman. Here on HN startups are making fun of lifestyle businesses. On r/programming Scala developers are making fun of Java developers. On imgur people are making fun of 9gag. The internet is making fun of Bieber fans. Bieber fans are making fun of old people. Old people make fun of young people. Young people make fun of old people.

People poke fun at each other. It's how we establish groups. It's how we operate. We pick a trait and converge around it, as soon as we see a member of the species who does not have that trait, we make fun of them and maybe, just maybe, we eventually let them join the group.

If you want to fight sexism, go to a country that hasn't given women the vote, or women are still treated as property. that's sexism.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#45
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men do not typically fear sexual violence from each other. Women do not typically fear sexual violence from men either. Any woman I've ever asked "Do you really live in constant fear from rape as the internet activists suggest" has answered with "Not really, unless I'm going down a dark alley alone at night it doesn't really cross my mind" But y'know, going down a dark alley alone at night, I'm pretty damn on guard…

>Ideal or not, hazing and bullying has worked for countless millennia to distinguish those you can rely on in a tight spot from those you cannot. The more dangerous the circumstances, the harder becoming accepted by a group seems to be. It's just how humans are. You're an intelligent guy, surely you realise that this can be used to justify any number of barbaric, animalistic behaviours. I could make up a list of luri…

The Enlightenment era was arguably a high point of group-joining rituals.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#46
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But how is it any different than how men in groups behave towards one another? Men do not typically fear sexual violence from each other. Not that the men on that site were necessarily going to rape the engineer, but it was certainly orders of magnitude more likely than them raping each other. For the record I understand your point and you might be right, she may well be being accepted, but I don't think it's really…

> Men do not typically fear sexual violence from each other. Women do not typically fear sexual violence from men either. Any woman I've ever asked "Do you really live in constant fear from rape as the internet activists suggest" has answered with "Not really, unless I'm going down a dark alley alone at night it doesn't really cross my mind" But y'know, going down a dark alley alone at night, I'm pretty damn on guard…

Having been in a fraternity, I have unfortunately been through hazing processes on both sides. Although it was very light hazing, I'm still ashamed both of having allowed myself to be put through it as well as to have put others through it.

The people who are responsible for hazing? --The ones that go at it with the most gusto? I've learned that those are the ones you should trust the least.

There is absolutely nothing respectable about hazing.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#47
post #16
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be interested in hearing about your experience.

Well there are two. 1. I was out with a group of female friends. Them being 3 to 4 females who have known each other for ages, me being the newcomer. I got the distinct feeling that men are walking penises. (granted they were all in their early twenties) 2. Living with my mum and sister (and female cat). Every day I am reminded that a man is incapable of tying his own shoes without a woman's help. We are these helple…

I don't think going out to a bar with a group of women or your home situation can really approximate a hypothetical workforce of women.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#48
Anyone else notice that 'The Vagenda' has a lot of articles that are aimed at men being jerks? I think any man reading this site will not have an accurate understanding as to what any writer is trying to convey. - My opinion on this article: If you don't like it leave; there are plenty of establishments that'll treat you the way you want to be treated. You just have to go through all the BS to figure out what you like and it obviously isn't this.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#49
post #43
post #4

I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask. The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. Reading this, it doesn't…

all I see here are men treating a woman exactly like they treat other men. I think you mean "men physically smaller than themselves". This is how morons, not men, organise themselves.

I doubt he does mean that. It's not related to the size at all.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. You may want to consider hanging out with a different crowd... Also, this is not "hanging out", this is the workplace. Different standards should apply. Bullying and intimidation in the workplace is unacceptable for any reason, and in this case it…

By the sounds of the article this is British construction workers we are talking about. They have their own culture which is equally as strange as ours, they literally rip on each other all of the time. They must find something to tease you about, whether it's being "gay" , your nationality or just the football team you follow. Unfortunately in this case in the absence of anything else they chose to pick up on her be…

That's not really much of a defence though, is it? British construction workers have decided for themselves which jokes are normal, which are funny, which jokes cross the line. Their tastes are biased in a very sexist way (probably more to do with subjective bias than actual misogyny, but still sexist in content).

Think about your list of things to joke about. If you're not a straight, masculine, white, English man then they joke about whatever makes you different. Which means sexist, homophobic or racist jokes. If you are a straight, masculine, white, English man, then, ha, ha, you like Manchester United. It's not ha, ha, your mum's got cancer, or ha, ha, you lost your wife in a car accident. No, hurtful jokes only get made to people who are different. People who are like the majority get made fun off for having different taste with regards being a sports fan.

Just because it's a tradition, and they don't mean it, doesn't mean it's okay.

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