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Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

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Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#41

Post by downandout »

downandout wrote: post #19

This speaks to a larger problem: The world simply doesn't need many of the people born into it. Parents in the US have children for recreational purposes - child birth rates do not fluctuate with the demand for labor. These kids grow up, and many of them wind up sleeping on the streets of their chosen city or more commonly just barely living paycheck-to-paycheck, because there is no societal need for them. This bears…

FYI whomever is downvoting this - you can downvote it all you want. It doesn't make it any less true. I'll take the hit on my karma points on the off chance it makes someone think, even for a second, about not perpetrating the selfish act of cruelty that is bringing a child into an impoverished existence.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#42

Post by jtbigwoo »

rottyguy wrote: post #20
jneen wrote: post #15

Yeah, housing. It's the big issue of the day here, and you can see how much it affects our culture. Basically we created a mortgage system that only works as long as property values continue to rise, which created a lot of political will behind "improvement" measures like eliminating public housing, like we did in the early 80s. (see http://www.wraphome.org/downloads/without_housing.pdf [pdf] for a fascinating study…

I actually think we created a mortgage system that will keep most people working (income earning) for the majority of their lives (30yrs). Now that our life span is increasing, will the norm be 40yrs?

You can get a 40 year mortgage at many banks now. I doubt 40 year mortgages will ever catch on. The banks generally charge a higher interest rate for the longer term so the payments aren't much cheaper than a 30 year loan.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#43

Post by thenomad »

jarjoura wrote: post #32

There is a disparity between rich and poor in this country, sure, but come on. Most of the homeless in SF actually want to be on the streets. So many of them are young and it used to make me sad but I have just learned to accept it. I always make a point to package up leftovers and hand them out. I'll even reach into my wallet and hand out a few dollars too. If there were more I could do though, I would be more than…

Most of the homeless in SF actually want to be on the streets.

{{Citation needed}}

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#44

Post by regis »

One thing that I think is missing from these discussions about the homeless in SF is: many of these people do not want to be rent-paying members of society and even if there was housing for them, some might still prefer their current lifestyle. Many people still view that lifestyle choice as unacceptable because it challenges the typical goals of someone working hard for a 'better' life. I don't think the question should be 'how do we get these people to participate in society?' but 'why don't they want to participate and how can we accommodate these alternative life choices?' Otherwise any progress made would benefit those who want to see the streets cleaned up and not necessarily those living out there.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#45

Post by amackera »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #4

The guy's Scottish, he thinks it's about San Fran specifically, it's really about AMERICA. Maybe San Fran puts it even more in your face. But compared to most any other country even half as rich as America, the lack of social safety net in the U.S. is kind of shocking. People in Europe don't really realize the extent of it.

I have had similar experiences in Toronto, Canada. We even have universal healthcare, and good social programs.

At least in SF a homeless person won't die from exposure in the wintertime.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#46

Post by nsxwolf »

beatpanda wrote: post #34
nsxwolf wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every city is the way it is because of the people that come into it. Now different people are coming in and things are changing. San Francisco is a place that people historically migrate to when looking for gold. The aspects of the culture that creates, the ones you like, anyway, are unpredictable and subject to change.

You could also say that "San Francisco is a place that people historically migrate to to subjugate native populations and force them to adopt a new culture and religion". Does that make it ethically defensible? Or did we not learn anything from the last few hundred years? I should also point out that the reason companies started coming to San Francisco in the first place was because of the culture that is currently b…

I think you're smearing missionaries a bit - they haven't ALL engaged in forcible conversion of natives. Quite often it is a voluntary decision.

But anyway, my point is that culture changes, and you can't stop it. Think of it as a culture free market. You can try to put up protectionist barriers to stop it, but you won't succeed. Not even the Amish are totally successful at it.

I grew up in Redmond, WA in the 70s and I don't recognize the place anymore when I visit. It makes me a bit sad, but that's life. Someday miles-high glaciers will form and scrub the Rocky Mountains away, too.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#47

Post by ajross »

bearmf wrote: post #39
ajross wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell exactly the point you're trying to make. Obviously there are specific cases ("schizophrenics" here, I guess) who are going to be very hard to treat in any safety net, and the US has no monopoly on them. But the point was broader, that relative to the rest of the industrial world the US has far more people at the "bottom" , falling out of the net. Walking around cities in Europe, you generally don't find…

There are plenty of people sleeping on park benches in Europe, especially in large cities like London and Paris.

Now, I'm sure this is a difficult thing to measure, and there's lots of room for legitimate argument. Nonetheless Wikipedia tells me that 248 Londoners "sleep rough each night", where 3-5000 of San Francisco's homeless population "refuse shelter". That's a full order of magnitude difference even ignoring the fact that London's population is several times that of SF.

And again, it gets to the safety net argument. It's not that the english are accepting shelter where the americans are not, it's that the english don't need to "accept" the homeless shelters in the first place because they are sleeping at home.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#48

Post by ams6110 »

downandout wrote: post #35
jarjoura wrote: post #32

There is a disparity between rich and poor in this country, sure, but come on. Most of the homeless in SF actually want to be on the streets. So many of them are young and it used to make me sad but I have just learned to accept it. I always make a point to package up leftovers and hand them out. I'll even reach into my wallet and hand out a few dollars too. If there were more I could do though, I would be more than…

Most of the homeless in SF actually want to be on the streets. That is perhaps the most ignorant sentence I have ever read on HN. Most homeless people don't have a choice. If they do have a choice, the fact that they choose to live on the streets likely speaks to the horrific situation they would face at their home. I can assure you that no one wants to be homeless.

I don't know about "most" but somewhere between "most" and "no one" there ARE some people who choose to be "on the streets."

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#49

Post by beat »

regis wrote: post #44

One thing that I think is missing from these discussions about the homeless in SF is: many of these people do not want to be rent-paying members of society and even if there was housing for them, some might still prefer their current lifestyle. Many people still view that lifestyle choice as unacceptable because it challenges the typical goals of someone working hard for a 'better' life. I don't think the question sh…

I don't think anyone actually PREFERS to be homeless, except for a few exotics. Most of the homeless in America are that way due to either a: unfortunate economic circumstances, or b: mental illness that precludes normal social functioning.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#50

Post by VMG »

thenomad wrote: post #43
jarjoura wrote: post #32

There is a disparity between rich and poor in this country, sure, but come on. Most of the homeless in SF actually want to be on the streets. So many of them are young and it used to make me sad but I have just learned to accept it. I always make a point to package up leftovers and hand them out. I'll even reach into my wallet and hand out a few dollars too. If there were more I could do though, I would be more than…

Most of the homeless in SF actually want to be on the streets. {{Citation needed}}

same goes for the OP (or the inverse statement)
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