Live data from Hacker News

Ask YC News: Voting up vs. up and down

news.ycombinator.com

41–48 of 48 posts

Re: Ask YC News: Voting up vs. up and down

#41
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought of doing that; I assume when you mean "market" it implies trade. So one way is to invest in shares of a piece of information and get returns to fluctuate based on the demand for that piece of information. But that would die given enough users, so implemented something simpler, but similar.

A prediction market like http://us.newsfutures.com/ works by having an ultimate arbiter of value: Either the event in question happens or it does not happen. I wonder how one would implement a market based system for recommending articles. Could you elaborate on your ideas?

Sure. If all information was traded like stocks, then, the person who speaks with the most authority would get the most investment. If they become senile, then they lose value. In terms of the recommendation system, then, it would simply recommend whatever/whoever has the highest market value, plus whatever metrics you added in.

You don't have an arbiter though, because information keeps increasing, and at very little cost, and is not limited by resources in the actual economy. Also, you aren't making a yes/no prediction, so you are not measuring something like accuracy (which is measurable). You are measuring a subjective valuation. Steve Jobs might be only 60% correct that the iPod is the best music player in the world, but a fan would think he's 120% correct. Even though the prediction market says he's 60% correct, in the actual market, he earns lots of money. Something like that.

It's not so far from the karma system, but the karma system is inherently flawed because it's based on democratic principles. When you see a likeable merchandise, you don't think in terms of "buy" or "not buy." You think in terms of value, relative to some baseline. A better system would give users the power to express this.

Re: Ask YC News: Voting up vs. up and down

#42
post #36
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the hardest part is finding what behavior to track. Click-through is obviously bad. Bookmarking and passing to friends will also slant the stories in a way that isn't necessarily good. I have a lot of friends that don't really care about hacker news, and tend to bookmark more reference-type material. Comments are useful, but that slants towards controversial topics.

Simple idea someone might want to found something on: provide a little highlighter extension for browsers/in a wraparound frame/as a bookmarklet. Track pages people highlight; title and describe them as the few most highlighted words.

Not sure if I'm the exception to the rule, but I definitely highlight random crap while I read a page (just something for my mouse hand to do)... so I'd ruin your stats in a mean way.

Re: Ask YC News: Voting up vs. up and down

#43
post #24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire up vote/down vote thing needs to go away. Voting on a story should be related to an action that the user is taking which implies an up/down vote. For example, in my Facebook application Wildfire stories are up voted only if you pass then on to your friends. As you mentioned to me yesterday, delicious/popular is interesting because it's based on pages people bookmarked for themselves. John.

In a small, smart community like this, an explicit upvote is a hard quality metric to beat.

The problem inevitably becomes what do you do once the community has become larger? How do you keep the topics and the level of discussion from sliding downward? This is an issue that Lambda the Ultimate's been facing for the last couple of years as less academic, more industry people join the community, and they've been handling it fairly well but it's taken a lot of work on everyone's part. Reddit's facing the same issue as well. If there are more dumb people than smart ones in a community, they can dictate what articles make it to the front page and overwhelm the good discussion with drivel.

Re: Ask YC News: Voting up vs. up and down

#44
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple idea someone might want to found something on: provide a little highlighter extension for browsers/in a wraparound frame/as a bookmarklet. Track pages people highlight; title and describe them as the few most highlighted words.

Not sure if I'm the exception to the rule, but I definitely highlight random crap while I read a page (just something for my mouse hand to do)... so I'd ruin your stats in a mean way.

I do the same. Mostly as a way to quickly find where I was reading after a distraction.

Re: Ask YC News: Voting up vs. up and down

#45

I don't like downvoting because downvotes are so ambiguous in meaning. An upvote clearly means "read this!". A downvote could mean disagreement on the subject, dislike of the author or just disinterest. I might want to read a story with wich many people disagree, but I might not want to read one that everybody finds completely irrelevant or shallow. The trouble is that the meanings of up and downvotes are different f…

I don't use downvotes to mean "I disagree." If I disagree and am too lazy to say why, I don't give a downvote.

Downvotes mean: "I find this especially uninteresting"

Re: Ask YC News: Voting up vs. up and down

#47
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could always have a downvote, but weight it as far less than an upvote. Personally I miss having the option of a downvote. Yes I agree downvotes can be an uninformed reflex, but removing any voice of disagreement seems overly harsh. I'd say have upvotes that count as 10 points, and downvotes that count as 1 point or something like that.

I disagree, as noted further up the thread. Preventing downvotes doesn't remove the dissenting opinion. In fact, it allows and encourages it. Downvotes allow groupthink to silence disagreement. If you disagree with something, instead of downvoting, post a comment explaining your position.

So what happens if something stupid or banal gets voted up to the front page. What if it's something that I don't think is relevant or useful.

Should I upvote every other article to express my opinion? :)

People who agree with an article/think it's important/useful have an immediate way to express that in a useful way - an upvote.

You don't have the same capability if you strongly disagree with an article, see it as unimportant, not relevant, or off-topic. I still think that's a shame.

Re: Ask YC News: Voting up vs. up and down

#48
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A prediction market like http://us.newsfutures.com/ works by having an ultimate arbiter of value: Either the event in question happens or it does not happen. I wonder how one would implement a market based system for recommending articles. Could you elaborate on your ideas?

Sure. If all information was traded like stocks, then, the person who speaks with the most authority would get the most investment. If they become senile, then they lose value. In terms of the recommendation system, then, it would simply recommend whatever/whoever has the highest market value, plus whatever metrics you added in. You don't have an arbiter though, because information keeps increasing, and at very littl…

Sorry, I still do not get it.

Could you explain the incentive structure?

Post reply on HN