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How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

theatlantic.com

41–50 of 68 posts

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#41
Both the Atlantic story kindly submitted here and a recent Business Week story

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-05-09/college-fina...

are reporting on findings from a report by Stephen Burd for the New American Foundation, "Undermining Pell: How Colleges Compete for Wealthy Students and Leave the Low-Income Behind."

http://newamerica.net/publications/policy/undermining_pell

http://newamerica.net/sites/newamerica.net/files/policydocs/...

This has been an ongoing problem for a long time. Colleges seek the advice of consulting firms that tell the colleges how to maximize revenues, and one way to do that is to skew "financial aid" policies in favor of students from high-income families.

http://www.maguireassoc.com/services-challenges/optimize-net...

As a matter of talent development across the whole country, the United States finding consistently is that it is more advantageous for a child to a be a low-ability child from a high-income family than a high-ability child from a low-income family.

http://www.jkcf.org/news-knowledge

http://www.nagc.org/index.aspx?id=10000

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/education/scholarly-poor-o...

It's understandable why a parent who has money would want to use that money to give Junior leverage to gain upward social mobility. What's harder to understand is why publicly subsidized financial aid programs would fail to identify the most able students who lack family means to attend college, rather than being used by colleges to leverage the admission of even more average students from well-off families.

AFTER EDIT: Other comments in this thread are asking where parents and taxpayers can find information about the costs of each college. The United States federal government IPEDS database gathers data about college revenues and spending from all colleges in the country, and the federal data are presented in the most user-friendly format by the College Results website

http://www.collegeresults.org/

operated by the Education Trust. You can look up how radically colleges differ in what they spend per student and in graduation rates of admitted students, among many other interesting statistics, on the College Results site.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#42

Historically hasn't this always been the case? I thought it wasn't until recently when college became a at least remotely affordable option.

College has been accessible for many students for decades, especially state colleges. When I went to a state college in the mid-90s it was possible for my middle class parents to pay tuition out of pocket without going into debt. That's not really possible today except for trade schools or community colleges.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#43
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to test your assumptions here. You claim : "the current system is broken" You submit as evidence to that claim : "there are tons of kids right now graduating without a sliver of hope for a job." If I ran this claim backwards (which is to say reverse its assertions) then a "working" education system would produce "most of the kids employable" ? I wonder why that defines "fixed" (or broken for that matter). I…

" Higher learning institutions should help you explore your interests regardless of the applicability of those interests to employment. " I disagree. Historically, postsecondary education might have been limited to the disciplines of academia and focused solely on liberal arts. However, at this point, a four-year degree is an effective prerequisite to 90% of white-collar job. (Irrespective of the actual value of a de…

[deleted]

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#44

Historically hasn't this always been the case? I thought it wasn't until recently when college became a at least remotely affordable option.

If by "historically" you mean over the past 1000 years or so (the first university was the University of Bologne, ~1088), then yes. Significant democratization of university education is largely a phenomenon of the post WWII era. In the US, the GI Bill. In Europe, various public funding mechanisms.

This democratization was controversial at the time, though it also coincided with the biggest boom in global wealth the world has ever seen. I suspect this is more correlative than causal, and is tied to the increasing energy available to world economies through fossil fuels. That said, technological increases supported in part by broader education have increased productivity ($GPD/GWh) as well.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to test your assumptions here. You claim : "the current system is broken" You submit as evidence to that claim : "there are tons of kids right now graduating without a sliver of hope for a job." If I ran this claim backwards (which is to say reverse its assertions) then a "working" education system would produce "most of the kids employable" ? I wonder why that defines "fixed" (or broken for that matter). I…

This is a difficult issue for a lot of reasons, hence my restating the context. I'd venture that no matter what else an education provides, if it does not enable a graduate to repay their loan, it is non-sustainable. (Whether you want to use "good" or "bad" here is up to you) Even the phrase "public education" is broad and fuzzy. With a tremendous amount of student loans publicly-financed, with public financing also…

> if it does not enable a graduate to repay their loan

What a weirdly backwards way of phrasing it. Why should anyone take out a loan to get an education? Why would a public university charge tuition? My parents did not take out loans to get college degrees (in California, in the 1960s). But their generation got rich and now doesn't want to pay for the next generation to do the same. Should boomers who attended fully subsidized public education now really be let off the hook with their ridiculous claims that they're some kind of Randian superhero who worked their way up "on their own", and it would be "theft" to ask them to pay taxes so the same system they benefited from can continue?

It's certainly not impossible to do so, if people aren't so stingy. I moved out of the U.S. and now live in a country that has free public education. Not just free, but you get paid to attend university, up through a master's degree. (Not paid a lot, but a modest living stipend.) We have a lower unemployment rate than the U.S. does, too. And better transit and less bureaucratic healthcare.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#46
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>feel entitled to a job Should we really insult people's character for wanting to work? Entitlement is a connotatively charged word that implies privilege, laziness, and an unreasonable desire to enjoy the fruits of other people's labor while sitting around. I can at least understand the use of the word "entitled" when leveled against welfare, progressive taxation, refusal to do entry-level work, etc. But how is it w…

I think the connotation is that they feel as though they ought to be able to obtain a livable job doing what they want to do, which is not the case. They aren't necessarily entitled, but are naive and have unrealistic expectations. Just because one loves writing does not mean that they will be able to secure employment as a writer. Yet, students continue to enter writing programs and graduate with useless degrees, ex…

I also believe the world has tended to conflate talent discovery with the talent quantity, because historically, talent discovery was up to a select few gatekeepers (like record labels and publishers), who could (or would) only showcase a small fraction of the available talent pool. Whether they did this because of unavoidable resource constraints or to ensure an artificial scarcity is another debate.

Now that anyone with a decent amount of talent and/or the willpower to put in some effort into honing a skill can also showcase that skill, the supply of writers and singers and musicians has suddenly become much larger than before. So it follows that the price associated with purchasing access to the fruits of these talent/labours will have dropped.

TL;DR: Microeconomics 101.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#47
post #3

When people vote to not raise taxes to fund these schools, what do they expect is going to happen to subsidized tuition? We saw this happen a few years ago in Washington after voters voted against raising taxes to fund schools, and schools started accepting more foreign students and fewer local students to make their budgets. People were upset about this, for some reason. If the school gives four students $5,000 scho…

This is the classic dilemna, everyone wants good public services but low taxes. The argument is often that either ways should be found to deliver better services for lower cost, or that money should be diverted away from something else instead of a tax raise. Or people want a tax increase for somebody else but not themselves to cover it.

>everyone wants good public services but low taxes.

Everyone??

Typical right-winger: I want low taxes and don't care about public services (although naturally I'd prefer public services to no services).

Typical left-winger: I want public services and don't care about low taxes (although naturally I'd prefer low taxes to high taxes).

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#48
post #29

That's not quite true. They're giving merit aid instead of income based aid. You can be poor and get high test scores and they'll court you too.

Did you read the article? They prefer giving small amounts of merit aid to many rich students than large amounts of merit aid to fewer poor students. The result is that, for the same level of merit, the rich get a subsidy and the poor are denied.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#49

I don't mean to restate the obvious, or pander to the crowd on HN, but every time we read one of these articles it needs to be stated that the current system is broken even when it is paid for . That is, for all the ink spilled over who can afford what and how much money is spent where, there are tons of kids right now graduating without a sliver of hope for a job. Worse yet, the system has been blowing smoke up thei…

I'd like to test your assumptions here. You claim : "the current system is broken" You submit as evidence to that claim : "there are tons of kids right now graduating without a sliver of hope for a job." If I ran this claim backwards (which is to say reverse its assertions) then a "working" education system would produce "most of the kids employable" ? I wonder why that defines "fixed" (or broken for that matter). I…

>>that the 'publicly funded' part of our education system (that is K-12) should strive to make you generally employable, and that higher learning institutions should help you explore your interests regardless of the applicability of those interests to employment.

Sorry, but... what?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but why should society pay for your exploration of your interests regardless of their applicability to employment?

We use employment as a means of converting skills into economic value. This is why when you work for a company or a government institution, you are given money in exchange for the value you produce. This value is determined by consumer and citizen demand for goods and services. What this means is that you need to produce something other people want, as opposed to what you want. Otherwise you won't have a job, because nobody will need your skills and knowledge.

Public education is a contract between the citizen and the (state) government. The citizen pays taxes to fund it, and in return his/her child gets a subsidized education. But that is where the contract ends. If the kid wants a job after that, they better make sure they are making the most use of the education by learning how to fulfill consumer and citizen demand in the economy. They can pursue their interest in botanics or cultural studies in their spare time, as hobbies.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#50

Both the Atlantic story kindly submitted here and a recent Business Week story http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-05-09/college-fina... are reporting on findings from a report by Stephen Burd for the New American Foundation, "Undermining Pell: How Colleges Compete for Wealthy Students and Leave the Low-Income Behind." http://newamerica.net/publications/policy/undermining_pell http://newamerica.net/sites/newame…

"being used by colleges to leverage the admission of even more average students from well-off families"

Entirely possible that the mix of students at a University as far as "class" needs to be skewed a certain way as well to gain other hidden benefits..(Add: in addition to what else is being talked about in your and other comments.)

For example you don't want 90% of your students coming from NY State, you don't want 90% of your students to be asian and you may very well want a larger percentage of your students coming from upper middle class families just because it creates (in their opinion) a better environment as a whole at the University.

Meaning a mediocre student from a wealthy family is still a person from a wealthy family. A mediocre student from a lower class family is a person raised in a lower class family. Different dress, different actions etc. (I'm purposely using extremes to try and make the point about possible motives.)

All of this of course is not talked about but entirely possible that it exists (pure speculation). Just as it's possible that two women interviewing with exactly the same qualifications (and family background) one who is extremely attractive and one that isn't, the attractive one gets the admission.

Your thoughts?

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