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North Korea's silent football matches

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Re: North Korea's silent football matches

#41
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think nodata is saying that the North Korean government has taken that right away from them.

And I think, I said it clearly, that what is the proof of, that right being taken away is something NK's want to fight for? even if what nodata said is true, that it is indeed being taken away. The reporting of our own media? which are not being allowed into NK, or if they are, are they being allowed the time, freedom to scrutinize? And if someone would think, that because they are disallowing media, they have someth…

No one is attacking you personally here. You have simply said some misguided accusations about a country whose history you clearly have not read very much about. That is fine, we all make mistakes. Digging your heels is unnecessary. Perhaps this story would make you pause and reconsider your perspective. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk_%28human_rights_... One exerpt is particularly chilling:

"""When Shin was 14, he overheard his mother and brother planning an escape attempt and informed the guards, which was something he was taught to do from an early age.[4][5] Rather than reward Shin for turning his family members in, the guards tortured him for four days to extract more information from him.[4][5] According to Shin, the guards lit a charcoal fire under his back and forced a hook into his skin so that he could not struggle,[12] and this caused Shin to receive many large scars from the flesh being burned and other abuses.[13] On November 29, 1996, camp officials forced Shin to watch the public execution of his mother and brother, and he knew that he was directly responsible for the execution """

Re: North Korea's silent football matches

#42

As long as they don't nuke anyone, I believe North Koreans have every right to live as they want, no matter how strange/hilarious/unmeaning/suppressed their lifestyle may seem to us. EDIT: Explanation- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5694012

Dictatorships are not unknown to the west. We know though, that it is more productive and fulfilling to live in a free democratic society. True, people in dictatorships can claim even a high level of satisfaction and happiness, but it's mostly a case of ignorance being a bliss. You are dismissing the power of oppression in altering minds. We have that in the west too, the media, yet we believe its marginally better due to pluralism

Re: North Korea's silent football matches

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And of all things, you had to go to my profile, and adjudge me ignorant, based on my age. Well, I don't mind that. Some people are built that way to find illogical reasons to deny someone's opinion. People here, of all the people, know better that wisdom is not based on age. It is rare at young age, but not impossible.

You're confusing "intelligence" and "wisdom". Wisdom is, without a doubt, based on age. It's something that can only be obtained through years and years of experience dealing with people, places, and situations in the world. While you may have more intelligence than an 80 year old Korean War vet, I don't think anyone would believe you have more wisdom.

I completely disagree with the original poster, but lets focus on his argument, not on a thing as ridiculous as the posters age. I'm 34, btw.

Re: North Korea's silent football matches

#44

As long as they don't nuke anyone, I believe North Koreans have every right to live as they want, no matter how strange/hilarious/unmeaning/suppressed their lifestyle may seem to us. EDIT: Explanation- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5694012

A number of issues with your position.

First of all, people, regardless of country, don't start wars, governments do. The North Korean people will not nuke anyone, ever. If that happens it will be done by their government. Be sure to understand that distinction as you go forward in life. The hundred million people killed during the world wars died because of decisions and actions taken by governments, not farmers in Germany, teachers in Japan, taxi drivers in New York or restaurant owners in London. War is one of the most regrettable failures of our collective approaches to government.

As for the rest, read the Allegory of the Cave. Someone who only knows shadows does not know reality. You seem to imply this is perfectly acceptable. I think most of the negative reaction you are seeing is because, of course, this idea is deeply flawed and, at some level, really cruel.

I'll take this to an uncomfortable extreme. Suppose the town next to yours has a culture of child abuse. That's just what they do. Every home has a dungeon and kids are kept in there until they become adults. No education is provided at all.

You and I look at this from the outside. You say it is OK no matter how horrible this might look to us. I say it is not.

I know you've had criticism for being young. I won't go there other than to say that there are a lot of indoctrinated young idealists in the HN audience. In some cultures they come out of school indoctrinated and fail to understand the world and their environment until perhaps decades later. I'd venture to say people don't really get it until somewhere around 30 to 40 years of age.

Start by reading some of the Greek philosophers. I am not suggesting you take their writings as facts as much as I would propose they might teach how to reason and view things from many angles. I don't intend this to imply you are ignorant. Not even close. It's something from my own education I continue to find value in over the years and I thought I'd share that with you.

Re: North Korea's silent football matches

#45
I have to say, I am scared. Very scared actually. I am scared of the grumblings around North Korea, the overwhelming and consistent negative media. This has sprung up recently (country scale timeline), over the past 1.5 ish years i'd say off hand, maybe?

I really am terrified that this is the western nation creating a causus belli. A reason for war. I'm really scared that in the coming years, the graph of human population is about to take an unexpected dip. Another nightmare in human history. Someone tell me that's not going to happen :(

Re: North Korea's silent football matches

#46

As long as they don't nuke anyone, I believe North Koreans have every right to live as they want, no matter how strange/hilarious/unmeaning/suppressed their lifestyle may seem to us. EDIT: Explanation- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5694012

A number of issues with your position. First of all, people, regardless of country, don't start wars, governments do. The North Korean people will not nuke anyone, ever. If that happens it will be done by their government. Be sure to understand that distinction as you go forward in life. The hundred million people killed during the world wars died because of decisions and actions taken by governments, not farmers in…

Out of curiosity. What was he indoctrinated into thinking? That objective morality doesn't exist?

Speaking of indoctrination, there is a contingent of people who actively view this as child abuse. Your metaphor is a reality, one town (I'm sure more than one, actually) really does actively abuse their children in the view of another.

Do you still say it's not ok? Even when the one abusing that child is your next door neighbor, even when you don't hold the morality of this other demographic? We live in an antagonistic society, where we compete to produce, The weakest of us fall to the wayside, are we moral?

If that town abusing their children followed your law, they would of wiped out the atheists, for abusing their children. Not teaching your children about god is child abuse, after all, in one groups view.

Re: North Korea's silent football matches

#47
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the caste thing, had some more thoughts. Django Unchained plays with this. At first, you don't know where Stephen fits in. Is he a slave who "knows his place"? But he's so disrespectful! Gradually you learn that he has carved out a special role for himself at the expense of others. There's lots of room for talking about knocks on the door, and who fears who in Pulp Fiction too. Thinking about North Korea is…

It depends, whether this is the case with NK as well. As it is, they are indeed subject to a fair amount of our interference, Ideas, or whatever you call it. But the fundamental issues of a country are poverty, education, shelter, etc. Why? Well, if you are hungry, a lifetime of servitude to psychological brainwash, would not turn the millions of years of instinct. If that situation worsens, people across North Korea…

> But imagine, America coming in to NK, in the name of liberalizing the people, and causing more death, famine, and stuff in the process, which is not avoidable.

Ugh, this dichotomy of America as world police vs. cultures it doesn't really understand is juvenile at best.

The US drone strikes on Pakistani civillians are horrible, but if you want a lesson in brutality towards non-combatants, look no further than Pakistan during partition or the Bangladeshi independence war. The U.S. dropped nukes on Japan, but the atrocities carried out by the Japanese military at Nanking and Unit 731 are about the most terrible you'll read about outside of the Third Reich.

Morality, especially in terms of the actions of nations over time is complex and nuanced. Pointing out that the North Korean regime is fucking insane does not imply that you think the U.S. should roll in guns blazing.

> Organizations like RedCross, UNESCO, and others have to be pressed upon.

Pressed upon to do what exactly? Provide even more aid to the North Korean regime who will distribute it to citizens it deems fit to eat?

I applaud the sentiment here, but this belies either naivete about the complexities and long-term effects of supplying aid to developing countries (especially dictatorships) or a complete lack of knowledge about the North Korean track record.

The grim western consensus on the North Korean problem has always been to sit-tight and let the country implode and hopefully unify with the South, though whether this is likely to happen soon is anyones guess.

Re: North Korea's silent football matches

#48

As long as they don't nuke anyone, I believe North Koreans have every right to live as they want, no matter how strange/hilarious/unmeaning/suppressed their lifestyle may seem to us. EDIT: Explanation- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5694012

A number of issues with your position. First of all, people, regardless of country, don't start wars, governments do. The North Korean people will not nuke anyone, ever. If that happens it will be done by their government. Be sure to understand that distinction as you go forward in life. The hundred million people killed during the world wars died because of decisions and actions taken by governments, not farmers in…

First of all, people, regardless of country, don't start wars, governments do.

This is exactly backwards: There is no such entity as a government. It is a collection of people, appointed in some fashion (whether by others or by themselves), who make decisions on behalf of a larger group of people. It's people all the way down.

It's like a corporation in this respect. Google has never done anything, nor has Microsoft, Citibank, or any of those big earners on Wall Street. There are not bad corporations or good corporations; there are only corporations run by people that make decisions and take actions to which we then assign a moral judgment.

Making the mistake of assigning that judgment to a faceless non-entity and not to the people who are running it is the same as saying "The North Korean people will not nuke anyone, ever." If a nuke is launched by North Korea, it absolutely was launched by North Korean people: Those who gave the order to launch it. This is why different politicians within the same government can continue to hate, disagree with, and rail against each other, and why it's never so simple as "country x did thing y, they're all evil, kill 'em all."

If it were that simple -- or even if many people believed it were -- we'd have all wiped each other out very quickly after the advent of the nuclear bomb (if not before).

Re: North Korea's silent football matches

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A number of issues with your position. First of all, people, regardless of country, don't start wars, governments do. The North Korean people will not nuke anyone, ever. If that happens it will be done by their government. Be sure to understand that distinction as you go forward in life. The hundred million people killed during the world wars died because of decisions and actions taken by governments, not farmers in…

First of all, people, regardless of country, don't start wars, governments do. This is exactly backwards: There is no such entity as a government. It is a collection of people, appointed in some fashion (whether by others or by themselves), who make decisions on behalf of a larger group of people. It's people all the way down. It's like a corporation in this respect. Google has never done anything, nor has Microsoft,…

Sorry, that's nonsense. Did the people of the US decide to attack Iraq? Nope. A few people in government did. Yes, they are US citizens. Still, it is a ridiculous stretch to say that the people of the US decided to go into Iraq. Nobody asked me. I would have said not to do it.

Re: North Korea's silent football matches

#50

I have to say, I am scared. Very scared actually. I am scared of the grumblings around North Korea, the overwhelming and consistent negative media. This has sprung up recently (country scale timeline), over the past 1.5 ish years i'd say off hand, maybe? I really am terrified that this is the western nation creating a causus belli. A reason for war. I'm really scared that in the coming years, the graph of human popul…

This has been the norm re:NK for a long time. Lots of bluster, bullying & bravado amounting to nothing.

Should there be war, Seoul would take some damage and NK would fold in about an hour.

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