The Idled Young Americans • Hacker News Board

Re: The Idled Young Americans

#41

Post by super-serial » Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:03 PM UTC

goostavos wrote: post #19

svachalek wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, the middle class isn't coming back until the employment situation improves, with consequent improvements in salaries etc. Soon we're going to be seeing low-skill jobs go almost entirely to machines, while higher-skill work gets more and more levered up. I expect at the pace we're going (on both technology and economy), that will happen before we ever recover from the current crisis. A large percentage of…

>A large percentage of workers are not going to have much to offer, economically, and I'm not sure where we go from there. I wonder about this all the time. My primary interest is in fields like Computer Vision, with an ultimate goal of contributing to the self driving car scene. As excited as I am by that and want to see that future as a reality, there's a side of me that wonders what the workforce will do as automa…

They go home to their robo-housing condo, eat meat grown on sheets in massive labs run by robo-farmers, and any supplies they need are transported by robo-truckers. When they get sick, they just go to the robo-hospital.

All these things are completely free and not staffed by any humans... because the billionaires who live in cities in the sky feel guilty about the pathetic insignificant lives of the idiot masses below. So we give them the necessities they need, and poison their food so they don't procreate too much.

Re: The Idled Young Americans

#42

Post by paganel » Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:03 PM UTC

aridiculous wrote: post #22

I'm always perplexed by the (possibly rhetorical) surprised tone of these kinds of articles. As if it wasn't glaringly obvious that young people are getting screwed because of their lack of employment histories combined with an ultra-competitive job market (for most industries). The discussion then usually turns to how young people have useless degrees or are lazy or entitled, or some other monday morning quarterback…

> One thing is obvious: most white-collar, educated people who already had jobs before 2008 are doing just fine, haven't noticed a thing, and don't give a neuron to thinking about unemployed people.

I remember reading an article around 2008 (in the Economist, I think) based on a (then recent) research paper that showed that people who graduated during a recession had a lot more to lose in the long run (smaller wages etc) compared to people who graduated during "normal" times.

We're 5 years later, the "recession" supposedly ended three or four years ago (I'm talking about the US here), and yet things don't seem to have reverted back to normal. Unless maybe this is in fact the new normal.

Re: The Idled Young Americans

#43

Post by Domenic_S » Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:07 PM UTC

Riesling wrote: post #25

laughfactory wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@com2kid You're spot on. As a recent college graduate (at a non-traditional age: in my 30's) I saw a TON of exactly what you describe. Our peer group (not the Hacker News peer group, clearly, but the rest of the 20 to mid-30s group) is, by and large, listless. They simply don't have much drive or motivation. They're--as you put it so aptly--merely "existing." I attribute this to changes in "higher" education. High sc…

Why do people have to adjust to the economy? Shouldn't it be the other way around in an ideal world? Why has the economy been created in the first place? As an end in itself? Or was it to make life easier for everybody? In my opinion, if the system fails to enable a fullfilled life for the majority of the people, the system needs to be changed. It's easy to say people should not acquire worthless Film & TV degrees, w…

> I would not want to spend the majority of my precious time on earth with something I do not like to do. And of course I think other people shouldn't either.

The world does not exist to provide you with enjoyment. If you can make a living doing what you love to do, like many of us here, that's a fantastic added bonus but realize -- it isn't the nature of life to be able to do what you enjoy 24/7 (or 8/5). This is why we have hobbies and relationships and recreation.

The expectation that life will be working 9-5 at a job you love then coming home to a dream version of your domicile of choice and a wonderful spouse/partner/dog/cat and spending your evenings drinking tea/coffee/wine/beer/whiskey debating politics/technology/art/music/literature while gazing over a picturesque sunset/oceanscape/bikini model/forest and sighing gently over how great everything turned out -- that expectation destroys happiness. Life plays out roughly according to the choices you make and is colored by luck. You can change your level of fulfillment by adjusting your expectations or working harder/differently or both. This might sound a little eastern, but what I think we need is a dose of gratitude. You're (probably) alive, (possibly) healthy, (presumably) not living on the street, (hypothetically) employed, (likely) have one or more people in your life who love you... be grateful. I expect this point to be misunderstood, but note for the record this is not the "things could be worse!" argument. It's exactly the opposite argument: "look how good things already are!".

So you work a job that isn't exhilarating? So what. Your job isn't your life, your life is your life.

Re: The Idled Young Americans

#44

Post by waps » Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:10 PM UTC

laughfactory wrote: post #18

scarmig wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, Christ. Start-up wankery has its place, but something to keep in mind: there's nothing that makes working for a start-up the be-all, end-all of a meaningful life. You complain about people just wanting to exist and live and enjoy time with their friends and family? And that they don't have grand dreams of starting a business, running it, doing a bunch of shit that's secondary to their actual interests? Here's the…

Oh, come now, scarmig. All he was saying is that many in our peer group don't have a plan. And they blame others for their lack of a job and for their lack of a life they find meaningful--rather than going out and doing something about it. I, for one, agree with him because that's what I've observed: numerous 20-somethings working at dead-end, menial jobs after graduation because they didn't adequately prepare for so…

> And many of them aren't thrilled to be merely subsisting. They want more, but they don't know how to get it, and they don't really own the responsibility for doing so anyway.

If you mean by that "aren't willing to do anything -at all- to achieve, well, anything really" then I agree with you.

> My hope is to be able to make a decent living (say $50,000/yr) working 25-30 hours a week so I can spend lots of time on my own interests and with my family.

That's certainly achievable I would think. However, be prepared for a lot of rejection. 40 (not 60) hour weeks + actual effort (dare I say it ... drive) is not just a requirement at startups.

Re: The Idled Young Americans

#45

Post by enraged_camel » Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:21 PM UTC

motters wrote: post #40

enraged_camel wrote: post #7

Like many people here, I work for a software company. We develop business automation software. Perhaps unlike most though, I'm closer to the bottom line (Sales Engineer), and are more closely tuned in to the types of business conversations our customers have when they are thinking about whether to buy our software. Often times, the conversation revolves around the fact that the software we sell makes the average work…

So it's a chicken an egg situation. If consumers aren't demanding it's probably because they don't have enough disposable income and if the ways of obtaining an income are becoming scarcer then you have a positive feedback effect which depresses the economy. The economic question then becomes one of how to break that positive feedback.

Tax breaks for the middle-class are a fantastic way of breaking that positive feedback. The problem is that they need to be sufficiently large to make a noticeable impact.

The other alternative is government spending, a.k.a. stimulus. If we start working on improving our national infrastructure, those projects could result in a lot of jobs.

Re: The Idled Young Americans

#46

Post by Riesling » Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:23 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #32

Riesling wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people have to adjust to the economy? Shouldn't it be the other way around in an ideal world? Why has the economy been created in the first place? As an end in itself? Or was it to make life easier for everybody? In my opinion, if the system fails to enable a fullfilled life for the majority of the people, the system needs to be changed. It's easy to say people should not acquire worthless Film & TV degrees, w…

> Why has the economy been created in the first place? As an end in itself? Or was it to make life easier for everybody? Economies are not created in any traditional sense (though ours is highly managed, for better or for worse). They come into being as a natural part of human behavior. For instance, we all place value on our time. If you ask me to do something, I will most likely ask for some form of reciprocation.…

> That said, ask the people who laid your sewer pipes, built your building, pave your roads, how much they enjoy being out at 4am in the rain and snow working.

I do not think that you can compare those kinds of jobs with modern jobs.

Modern jobs require intensive training. Sometimes studying the subject for multiple years only on a theoretical basis.

This does not work if you do not like what you do, in my opinion.

I myself have tried to obtain a degree in a field that I did not like. I failed miserably. It eventually made me depressed, something I do not wish upon anyone.

Re: The Idled Young Americans

#47

Post by bicknergseng » Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:32 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #33

peterwaller wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: what field are you in which means your candidates are going to need to write custom allocators on a regular basis? What problems need custom allocators? I'm a fan of lower level details and all, but surely you can get away with one of the many existing allocator implementations when the problem to be solved isn't "sudo make me an allocator"?

> Honest question: what field are you in which means your candidates are going to need to write custom allocators on a regular basis? Embedded. :P > What problems need custom allocators? I'm a fan of lower level details and all, but surely you can get away with one of the many existing allocator implementations when the problem to be solved isn't "sudo make me an allocator"? Memory is being counted in kilobytes. Proc…

>who feel the same, and who are serious about software engineering, isn't easy!

So what you're saying is that you have a hard time finding people experienced and passionate about your extremely small niche? I'm sure I'd have a hard time finding qualified child neurologists willing to work for < 200k as well.

Re: The Idled Young Americans

#48

Post by hbnyc » Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:46 PM UTC

As a 23 year old working in tech, I can say that much of my graduating class had no immediate plans to start a career and even more had no desire to relocate to a place that jobs were more plentiful. How do we fix this? We stop telling everyone that they are gifted and things will work out from an early age. We get far more out of constructive feedback as to why our project wasn't the best or why we lost than being told we're great in the face of defeat, getting a trophy, and going home with no fuel to better ourselves.

Re: The Idled Young Americans

#49

Post by aspensmonster » Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:55 PM UTC

super-serial wrote: post #41

goostavos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A large percentage of workers are not going to have much to offer, economically, and I'm not sure where we go from there. I wonder about this all the time. My primary interest is in fields like Computer Vision, with an ultimate goal of contributing to the self driving car scene. As excited as I am by that and want to see that future as a reality, there's a side of me that wonders what the workforce will do as automa…

They go home to their robo-housing condo, eat meat grown on sheets in massive labs run by robo-farmers, and any supplies they need are transported by robo-truckers. When they get sick, they just go to the robo-hospital. All these things are completely free and not staffed by any humans... because the billionaires who live in cities in the sky feel guilty about the pathetic insignificant lives of the idiot masses belo…

You just conjured up imagery of the Pangu and Tai Yong Medical from Deus Ex: Human Revolution in my mind. Lower Hengsha is indeed a place I would rather not live :) I think more people could do with reading, watching, and playing dystopic sci-fi media. Keeps everyone cognizant of the fact that technological advancement isn't an inherently good thing.

Re: The Idled Young Americans

#50

Post by Riesling » Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:58 PM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #43

Riesling wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people have to adjust to the economy? Shouldn't it be the other way around in an ideal world? Why has the economy been created in the first place? As an end in itself? Or was it to make life easier for everybody? In my opinion, if the system fails to enable a fullfilled life for the majority of the people, the system needs to be changed. It's easy to say people should not acquire worthless Film & TV degrees, w…

> I would not want to spend the majority of my precious time on earth with something I do not like to do. And of course I think other people shouldn't either. The world does not exist to provide you with enjoyment. If you can make a living doing what you love to do, like many of us here, that's a fantastic added bonus but realize -- it isn't the nature of life to be able to do what you enjoy 24/7 (or 8/5). This is wh…

> The world does not exist to provide you with enjoyment.

Why not?

Why does the world exist in your opinion? In my opinion there is no reason, at least none of which we are able to understand.

So why not make the best out of our time here?

An enjoyable working place is especially important, because this is where we spend most of our time.

> If you can make a living doing what you love to do, like many of us here, that's a fantastic added bonus but realize -- it isn't the nature of life to be able to do what you enjoy 24/7 (or 8/5).

Demanding this from others is one thing, doing this yourself is another one.

There were multiple stages in my life where I had to do work that I did not see a sense in and they always made me depressed and I didn't really do a good job at them even though I tried really hard.

Now I do what I love and I am really good at it. That this is computer science (something that is considered valuable at this specific place in time) is a complete coincidence.