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Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

nytimes.com

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Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#41

Post by jlgreco »

niels_olson wrote: post #35
jlgreco wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would really depend on what is being burnt. If it is primarily food waste, paper products, natural fibers, wood, etc.. then yeah; all of that carbon was already "in the system". If they are burning lots of garbage made from petrochemicals then that garbage is basically just another fossil fuel. As I understand it, the real issue with "clean coal" is not the soot but rather the CO2. Depending on what this garbage a…

> in the system That doesn't make it better. We have too much carbon in the atmosphere. We should be growing corn for the sole purpose of pouring it into oil wells and coal shafts.

It is certainly better than adding more greenhouse gasses, which is what fossil fuels do. Burning, for example, wood obviously does not reduce greenhouse gasses (nor does anyone claim that), but from a greenhouse gas standpoint it is clearly way better than digging up even more CO2. There are certainly other very important factors to consider, but if the discussion is global warming than you can give me a tree farm over a coal mine any day.

Dumping corn down mineshafts seems like it would be pissing in the ocean. Maybe instead of pissing in the ocean we should be experimenting with dumping fertilizers and nutrients into the ocean to trigger algae blooms. If that works as the theories say it should, and is seen to have acceptable consequences, that is something that we could actually do at scale (and without further subsidization of corn...).

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#42

Post by jlgreco »

niels_olson wrote: post #37
jlgreco wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely burning that methane is "in-system". Methane has a 20-year GWP of 72 and, unless my chemistry is far more rusty than I think it is, 1 mol of methane will burn with oxygen to form 1 mol of CO2. From a global warming standpoint, it would actually be wildly irresponsible to not burn that methane. In fact this seems to be the basis for the EPA's "Landfill Methane Outreach Program".

What's GWP? See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global-warming_potential

Aye. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global-warming_potential#Values) chart is important to consider too. I gave the 20-year GWP value for CH4, but CH4 does not last as long in the atmosphere as CO2 so that value drops as time progresses. However even the 500-year GWP for CH4 is still above CO2.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#43

Post by frenchman_in_ny »

stephengillie wrote: post #2

Oslo is powering their city by putting black ash into the air, which absorbs heat from sunlight, slightly increasing the amount of energy in all of our environmental systems. The place is powered by externalities, just like China. This solution is no better than coal-generated electricity, and this feel-good article is no more useful than clean-coal articles.

"This solution is no better than coal-generated electricity"

I'm not sure that's true at all. The only way a waste-to-energy plant can import waste from cross-borders is by having R1 status, R1 being a measure of energy recovery from the municipal waste that is burned [1].

On top of this, the plants (generally) recycle the plastic / metal that isn't burned, sell the fuel ash (to stabilize roads, etc), cogenerate steam from additional energy production, and either sell back to the municipalities the natural gas generated by the organic waste digestors or use it to generate additional electricity.

[1] http://www.cewep.eu/information/publicationsandstudies/state...

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#44

Post by up_and_up »

What about using thermo depolymerization?

Basically, using heat and pressure, turn literally anything that is carbon-based into water, natural gas and oil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization

http://robertrapier.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/tdp12.png

http://www.stvnbrgs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/2013-01-2...

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#45

Post by ericd »

niels_olson wrote: post #35
jlgreco wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would really depend on what is being burnt. If it is primarily food waste, paper products, natural fibers, wood, etc.. then yeah; all of that carbon was already "in the system". If they are burning lots of garbage made from petrochemicals then that garbage is basically just another fossil fuel. As I understand it, the real issue with "clean coal" is not the soot but rather the CO2. Depending on what this garbage a…

> in the system That doesn't make it better. We have too much carbon in the atmosphere. We should be growing corn for the sole purpose of pouring it into oil wells and coal shafts.

Which would largely turn back into CO2 once the bacteria do their thing.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#47

Post by aashay »

ttrreeww wrote: post #30
toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or desalinating water. India needs clean water, no?

Not really, they just drink it from the river.

Why would you assume the river water in India is clean? India has major problems with water pollution[1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_pollution_in_India

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#49

Post by lucian1900 »

niels_olson wrote: post #39
puivert wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's better than landfill without methane recovery, greenhouse gas wise.

Source? Mole for mole, I'm sure methane is worse than CO2, but how much of the carbon mass in a landfill goes to methane?

Methane is tens of times worse than CO2, so burning would probably have to release quite a lot of carbon to match methane.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#50

Post by niels_olson »

ericd wrote: post #45
niels_olson wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in the system That doesn't make it better. We have too much carbon in the atmosphere. We should be growing corn for the sole purpose of pouring it into oil wells and coal shafts.

Which would largely turn back into CO2 once the bacteria do their thing.

Erm, I believe it would turn back into oil and coal, etc.
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