Yahoo Expands Maternity, Paternity Leave • Hacker News Board

Re: Yahoo Expands Maternity, Paternity Leave

#41

Post by henrikschroder » Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 9:09 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #23

jerf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point at which your politics leads you to claim that sex (in this case we rather aren't talking gender, but actual sex) experiences in childbirth should be treated precisely equally is the point at which you need to sit down with your politics and have a long, heartfelt discussion vis a vis your politics' connection to reality. Some recognition of the differences in experience and particularly in consequences are…

bluthru's more important point is that by offering different amounts of time off for men and women you're disincentivizing managers from hiring women. The simplest way of removing this "hidden tax" on hiring women is to make the tax the same for men. A proper policy would give equal maternal/paternal time off for both parents for either birth or adoption, and also have some sort of paid medical leave program in place…

In Sweden, both parents get 16 months paid to split between them as they see fit. And even here in the most gender-equal nation, the actual distribution of parental leave between women and men is 76/24.

Since a few years back there's a bonus for parents who split the leave equally, but it's going to take generations until everyone does it. (All of my peers do it, but they're university educated upper middle class that can afford it)

Re: Yahoo Expands Maternity, Paternity Leave

#42

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 9:09 PM UTC

john_b wrote: post #4

Is anyone aware of how the courts have interpreted things like this (if at all)? > "Under the new policy, mothers can take 16 weeks of paid leave with benefits, and fathers can take up to eight weeks" Would that not be considered discriminatory?

[deleted]

Re: Yahoo Expands Maternity, Paternity Leave

#43

Post by criley » Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 9:15 PM UTC

mindjiver wrote: post #31

HorizonXP wrote: post #22

To be honest, this is exactly why I do not plan on starting a family in the Bay Area, and instead, will return back to Toronto. http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/pregnancy.... http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/types/maternity_parent... Basically, in Ontario, mothers are eligible for 17 weeks of pregnancy leave. After giving birth, both parents are eligible for up to 37 weeks of parental leave. Thi…

Here in Sweden you get 16 months to split between the parents. It amazes me how crappy the benefits are in even the most "progressive" Bay Area companies, like Facebook trying to recruit with "25 vacation days", makes me laugh.

We can crap on the Bay Area all day long, but then the question becomes: why isn't Silicon Valley in Sweden?

Re: Yahoo Expands Maternity, Paternity Leave

#44

Post by qw » Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 9:31 PM UTC

criley wrote: post #43

mindjiver wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Sweden you get 16 months to split between the parents. It amazes me how crappy the benefits are in even the most "progressive" Bay Area companies, like Facebook trying to recruit with "25 vacation days", makes me laugh.

We can crap on the Bay Area all day long, but then the question becomes: why isn't Silicon Valley in Sweden?

Why is Silicon Valley in California and not some other state, and why isn't there at least one other place in the United States that is comparable?

USA has 33 times the population of Sweden so if it was solely a product of a political system I would expect at least one other "Silicon Valley".

Considering that the distance between the East Coast and the West Coast is the same as the distance between Sweden and Egypt, I assume a second "Silicon Valley" would be viable.

Re: Yahoo Expands Maternity, Paternity Leave

#45

Post by newnewnew » Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 9:45 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #29

newnewnew wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men are not a protected group. Do you know of any government program aimed at compensating for male underperformance or that is biased in favor of males?

What does this have to do with government programs? Gender is a protected category, and many policies (not sure about laws specifically) prohibit discrimination according to gender just as they do about race, age, etc.

Do you know of any cases where protected category rules were used to favor males, whites, straight people, or the abled?

Men could probably sue for employment discrimination in some jobs such as child care providers. But would anyone care?

Re: Yahoo Expands Maternity, Paternity Leave

#46

Post by sp332 » Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 9:53 PM UTC

newnewnew wrote: post #45

sp332 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this have to do with government programs? Gender is a protected category, and many policies (not sure about laws specifically) prohibit discrimination according to gender just as they do about race, age, etc.

Do you know of any cases where protected category rules were used to favor males, whites, straight people, or the abled? Men could probably sue for employment discrimination in some jobs such as child care providers. But would anyone care?

I can't think of a bias in favor of males. But there are laws requiring certain equality. I do know of a case where a guy protested the dress code at his work (he wasn't allowed to wear shorts) by wearing a short skirt. The company's dress code allowed employees to wear short skirts, and they were not allowed to enforce the dress code differently for men.

Pay and benefits are enforced to be the same. In some states, car insurance companies are not even allowed to give different rates for men vs. women even though statistically women are less risky to insure.

Re: Yahoo Expands Maternity, Paternity Leave

#47

Post by mindjiver » Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 10:35 PM UTC

criley wrote: post #43

mindjiver wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Sweden you get 16 months to split between the parents. It amazes me how crappy the benefits are in even the most "progressive" Bay Area companies, like Facebook trying to recruit with "25 vacation days", makes me laugh.

We can crap on the Bay Area all day long, but then the question becomes: why isn't Silicon Valley in Sweden?

Man, I can list so many reasons, starting with a very risk averse society, then continuing with very bad economic policies during the period after WWII up until our big finical crisis in the 1990. Please note that I have some libertarian tendencies so my views are perhaps coloured by that.

But that was not my point. My point was how low the barrier for "great benefits" where even for "spoiled" software engineers in Silicon Valley. Why not try to move the goal post a bit further?

Re: Yahoo Expands Maternity, Paternity Leave

#48

Post by gertef » Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 10:40 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #13

bluthru wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that different paternity/maternity times makes employers view women as more hazardous. This also reinforces the sexist notion that fathers aren't as integral to early childhood development. I'm sure a new mother would love the extra help for another 8 weeks! Also, lets say that you're a child adopted by a homosexual married couple and you only get 8 weeks. How is that fair to the adopted child versus 1…

>Equality means treating people equally--including men and children All things aren't equal in this case. Child birth can be incredibly taxing on a woman's body. Some women would need more time to recover.

That's medical disability.

Re: Yahoo Expands Maternity, Paternity Leave

#49

Post by gertef » Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 10:41 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #25

nostromo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bluthru's more important point is that by offering different amounts of time off for men and women you're disincentivizing managers from hiring women. The simplest way of removing this "hidden tax" on hiring women is to make the tax the same for men. A proper policy would give equal maternal/paternal time off for both parents for either birth or adoption, and also have some sort of paid medical leave program in place…

> have some sort of paid medical leave program in place for complicated pregnancies Anecdotally, lots of women in Italy have "difficult pregnancies" because the incentives are there for it. They're happy to have extra time off, and doctors, when in doubt, are not going to choose the riskier option.

In the US, similar: it is standard for doctors to prescribe 6 weeks of rest, for use with employers and insurance companies that are moved by such a thing.

Re: Yahoo Expands Maternity, Paternity Leave

#50

Post by gertef » Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 10:41 PM UTC

just2n wrote: post #18

pc86 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because what the policy is essentially doing is saying "anyone with a new kid gets 8 weeks off. If you happened to have actually given birth to the kid, we'll give you an extra 8 weeks." As others have stated, it would only be discriminatory if it was based on gender, but it's not - it's based on whether or not you had the physical toll of childbirth, as evident in the adoption v. birth difference for women. It w…

Without trying to get involved, I just want to point out that it is (currently) physically impossible for males to give birth. So it would appear that such a claim is implicitly identifying a gender by excluding all of the other gender.

This is "disparate impact" and is fiercely debated where it appears.