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Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

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Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#41

Post by eurleif »

rayiner wrote: post #36
eurleif wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, just to be perfectly clear: you don't believe that people have any moral obligation not to murder each other. But they do have a moral obligation to follow contracts (the government's contract to do what the people want).

I don't believe in any super natural bases for morality,[1] so I believe that morality arises out of the social contract. Given that, it makes sense to talk about the moral obligations of individuals within a society to each other, but not to talk about one society's obligation to another. [1] Not just religion, but things like "natural rights" are really supernatural conceptually.

What's the basis for following the social contract being an obligation?

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#42

Post by unholyalliance »

mistercow wrote: post #34

>Suppose the city of San Francisco deported 10 percent of its computer programmers tomorrow and adopted a law saying that in the future no engineers born in other counties were allowed to move here. Would that lead to skyrocketing earnings for the remaining engineers? I seriously doubt it. I think it would destroy the San Francisco tech industry with some unfortunate knock-on effects a bit south in Silicon Valley. I…

This is the fallacy of division. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#43

Post by trustfundbaby »

pbiggar wrote: post #29
trustfundbaby wrote: post #18

This really is a no brainer, if you have the best and brightest coming here to work, then its only going to make everybody in the industry better as everybody has to raise their game to compete, as long as these workers don't flood the market (which the h1-b quota does a good job of keeping in check) The problem is with some of the foibles of the h1-b visa. H1-b workers cannot compete in the job market the way an Ame…

> The problem is with some of the foibles of the h1-b visa. H1B worker here. I think what you describe is actually completely offset by the strong demand for engineers. The cost of a H1B, which is as you say $5K or so (though its the same to transfer), is tiny in comparison to salaries, and also relative to recruiter fees (which can often be $30K). The only common reason companies don't do H1Bs is the hassle, and eve…

> The only common reason companies don't do H1Bs is the hassle, and even then it's not that big a deal for any funded or profitable company

That was not my point though ... I was trying to say that while all this is being done for the worker, that worker is beholden to the company doing all this on their behalf. Which allows the company take liberties with their wages that they could never even dream off with an American.

> There is really no power over the H1B at the moment

I agree, up to a point. At your 6 year mark, where the green card has to be filed for you to stay in the country. You are vulnerable, as it essentially makes it impossible for you to move for almost a year, getting canned at that point can also cause you untold grief. I also base this sentiment on some of the horror stories I've heard from h1-b workers at some of the body shops around the country.

> but your final line is hyperbole Again, we disagree. If I can hire a guy for $60k on the h1-b when the going rate is $90k, guess who's winning? Yes I know there is a concept of a prevailing wage, used in the filing, but those rates are ridiculously low.

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#44

Post by edderly »

altcognito wrote: post #31
edderly wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a rather naïve conclusion. If the job is relocatable the supply of workers who remain abroad will also reduce wages too.

> If the job is relocatable I've seen many, many, many corporations come to the conclusion that they are simply not able to manage resources abroad. They can barely handle them locally, let alone when there is many thousands of miles and a language barrier between them.

Of course. I think a lot of companies don't want to offshore some engineering jobs, however, if push comes to shove they'll do it. I'm not sure a government mandated limit helps this not occur.

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#45

Post by rayiner »

eurleif wrote: post #41
rayiner wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe in any super natural bases for morality,[1] so I believe that morality arises out of the social contract. Given that, it makes sense to talk about the moral obligations of individuals within a society to each other, but not to talk about one society's obligation to another. [1] Not just religion, but things like "natural rights" are really supernatural conceptually.

What's the basis for following the social contract being an obligation?

Biologically? The various chemical signals (shame, fear, regret, etc) that enforce behavioral expectations within groups of humans.

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#46

Post by davidw »

[deleted] wrote: post #23
trustfundbaby wrote: post #18

This really is a no brainer, if you have the best and brightest coming here to work, then its only going to make everybody in the industry better as everybody has to raise their game to compete, as long as these workers don't flood the market (which the h1-b quota does a good job of keeping in check) The problem is with some of the foibles of the h1-b visa. H1-b workers cannot compete in the job market the way an Ame…

[deleted]

> A no brainer to me would be that as the supply of something increases, the price goes down.

How many computer programmers were there 50 years ago? And now? Have their wages gone down proportionally?

"Economics 101" doesn't suffice to explain the complexities of the real world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#47

Post by yummyfajitas »

unholyalliance wrote: post #37
yummyfajitas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are poor, why are Chinese/Indians more likely to get into engineering/compsci than other demographics that are more local, such as poor African Americans / Hispanic Americans? Both the Indians and Chinese are almost certainly poor. At least 95% of India is poorer than the bottom 5% of America, and about 80-85% of China is. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/the-haves-and-t... Granted, they might be…

Most of the Indians and Chinese that I went to school with were the sons and daughters of doctors, lawyers, and professors.

What makes you believe that Indian/Chinese doctors, lawyers and professors are not poor by US standards?

You might be a "rich" corporate lawyer living in Bandra, but that doesn't mean you can afford a car, or more than 1 room/person for your family (most poor Americans have these things).

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#48

Post by smm2000 »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #17
colmvp wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) What is the percentage of students who get admitted into U.S. schools from foreign countries poor? Are most actually middle/upper class and just prefer to study overseas? I saw the latter as a pretty common scenario in Australia and Canada. 2) If they are poor, why are Chinese/Indians more likely to get into engineering/compsci than other demographics that are more local, such as poor African Americans / Hispanic…

If they are poor, why are Chinese/Indians more likely to get into engineering/compsci than other demographics that are more local, such as poor African Americans / Hispanic Americans? Both the Indians and Chinese are almost certainly poor. At least 95% of India is poorer than the bottom 5% of America, and about 80-85% of China is. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/the-haves-and-t... Granted, they might be…

Most Indians in US are from top 1% in India - pretty much every Indian I know had maids/gardeners/cooks at home. One guy cooked/washed clothes himself for the first time when he came to US.

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#49

Post by pbiggar »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #43
pbiggar wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is with some of the foibles of the h1-b visa. H1B worker here. I think what you describe is actually completely offset by the strong demand for engineers. The cost of a H1B, which is as you say $5K or so (though its the same to transfer), is tiny in comparison to salaries, and also relative to recruiter fees (which can often be $30K). The only common reason companies don't do H1Bs is the hassle, and eve…

> The only common reason companies don't do H1Bs is the hassle, and even then it's not that big a deal for any funded or profitable company That was not my point though ... I was trying to say that while all this is being done for the worker, that worker is beholden to the company doing all this on their behalf. Which allows the company take liberties with their wages that they could never even dream off with an Amer…

> I was trying to say that while all this is being done for the worker, that worker is beholden to the company doing all this on their behalf.

Not at all, because there are thousands of other companies will to do this too. Its a sellers market, and engineers can literally get a job with a week's notice (plus maybe 2 weeks to get the visa sorted out).

> At your 6 year mark, where the green card has to be filed for you to stay in the country.

Green cards take time and should be planned years in advance. Don't work a H1B job without negotiating Green Cards.

I agree there is a time where you are unable to move during this time. I don't believe that good companies are going to mistreat their employees during this time. Similarly with your last point, the prevailing wage is irrelevant because there is high competition.

> horror stories I've heard from h1-b workers at some of the body shops

I think we disagree because we're coming from different perspectives. I think you're looking at the body shops (which account for half of the H1Bs) and where everyone has heard horror stories. Those H1B employees might believe they are beholden and stuck, but the truth is they are not. Move out of New Jersey, come to SF and you'll find the streets paved with great working conditions and employers who pay and treat you right.

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#50

Post by unholyalliance »

First off you have supply and demand, which is enough to say that new workers would depress wages. You can go deeper into the micro-economics view point and look at the utility curves of the American Engineer vs. an Immigrant Engineer, and see that they are very different. A immigrant engineer, is facing possible deportation to a country with lower wages, whereas an American Engineer is more willing to hold out for a higher wage, knowing the state of the labor market and that they do not have as pressing of a need for a job immediately. To an immigrant worker, turning down the job could lead to a much worse outcome, so their logical choice is to take the initial pay offered.

Furthermore, the business is aware of both their cost of the H1NB and of the immigrants situation, which gives them a negotiating advantage. They can use the H1NB cost as a negotiation tactic, and pay the worker a lower wage, without fear of being turned down.

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