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Why aren't Cubans, Quebecois, Saudis, Syrians allowed in Google Code Jam

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Re: Why aren't Cubans, Quebecois, Saudis, Syrians allowed in Google Code Jam

#41

Post by kintamanimatt »

pc86 wrote: post #38
kintamanimatt wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably, because Google has a Canadian subsidiary with offices in Montreal; they're subject to local law. If this wasn't the case they'd gladly not exclude Quebecois.

Why are we just making stuff up? This is not true. Contests must abide by any local laws or regulations in any jurisdiction they're run in. If you don't run the contest in Quebec (e.g. if you disallow Quebecois entrants) then and only then are you exempt from their laws.

We're not making stuff up. If I run a competition and someone from Belgium enters (and wins) but I have no presence in Belgium, I'm in no way subject to Belgian laws. How can I possibly be? Google doesn't have offices in Venezuela, Colombia, Bolivia, Chile, or South Africa. I highly doubt they're complying with local laws regarding competitions in these jurisdictions!

Google are subject to Quebec's laws because they have offices there and a Canadian subsidiary. If these things weren't, they wouldn't have to abide by such laws. Even if Quebec said they had to, they wouldn't have jurisdiction.

Re: Why aren't Cubans, Quebecois, Saudis, Syrians allowed in Google Code Jam

#42

Post by awaythrowme »

JiPi wrote: post #32
Farox wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not too far off. Companies have to, with growing size, do more and more stuff in french. At large companies that aren't exempt you must have a french keyboard for example and code comments have to be in french.

I live in Quebec and worked in big organizations, even public ones like the Governement and a city, and never ever heard that. Source please?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francization#Francization_in_Qu...

Any large company should have a policy document which states the absurd rules including installation of French software versions and use of French keyboards, hiring and e-mail policies. I believe the policies only apply to businesses with over 50 employees so you would not have encountered them in the public sector.

Re: Why aren't Cubans, Quebecois, Saudis, Syrians allowed in Google Code Jam

#43

Post by bodyfour »

JPKab wrote: post #18
erfou wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are some public and private institutions where we can't use an english keyword for our variables and functions name.....I'm not joking!!

Wow. I've heard that all of these "you have to use French" rules in Quebec are a reaction to years of French-Canadians in Quebec being treated as second class to the English-Canadians. Doesn't make them any less stupid.

That's one interpretation.

A more cynical one would be that very few anglophones would ever vote "Oui" in a secession referendum. Therefore the Parti Québécois had motivation to make life as uncomfortable as possible for english speakers, hoping they'd give up and move to Ontario.

Probably both explanations have some amount of truth to them.

Re: Why aren't Cubans, Quebecois, Saudis, Syrians allowed in Google Code Jam

#44

Post by 1123581321 »

kintamanimatt wrote: post #22
TheCoreh wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the competition is being held by a company outside of Quebec, do they need to abide to these laws at all?

Probably, because Google has a Canadian subsidiary with offices in Montreal; they're subject to local law. If this wasn't the case they'd gladly not exclude Quebecois.

That's sort of right. Quebec's laws apply whether Google has an office there. However, because the contes is conducted virtually, Quebec wouldn't be able to do a thing to a contest holder with no nexus in Quebec. If Google was required to send a representative to Quebec to conduct their contest and didn't abide by the law, that representative might be deported, or in some stricter countries arrested. Google Code requires no such person, of course.

Re: Why aren't Cubans, Quebecois, Saudis, Syrians allowed in Google Code Jam

#45

Post by JPKab »

rayiner wrote: post #34
JPKab wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I've heard that all of these "you have to use French" rules in Quebec are a reaction to years of French-Canadians in Quebec being treated as second class to the English-Canadians. Doesn't make them any less stupid.

I think it does. Language discrimination can be an extremely vitriolic form of oppression, and don't underestimate how much it sucks to be a second class citizen in your own country. Just look at the AAVE thread on HN a couple of weeks ago.

AAVE is one dialect among dozens in the US that will get you discriminated against. I grew up in Appalachia (West Virginia/southwestern Virginia line) and when I'm at home or with friends/relatives, my natural dialect is potent.

However, over many years, starting in late high school, I trained myself to speak in a more standard form of English to protect myself from the discrimination of the "hillbilly" stigma. This is my formal dialect, and I use it in business and in formal/sem-formal scholastic settings. My father was the one who encouraged me to do this. As a child, I noticed that he spoke differently when making business calls. He told me that, when "you are trying to make money, trying to learn to make money, or dealing with somebody who wants your money, you speak their language." This knowledge of using a non-native, standard dialect in business/government/education communications is extremely common, and is especially common amongst the mainstream African American community. The issue with AAVE is only when children are raised in broken families by parents who are too ignorant/disengaged/etc to teach children the standard, formalized dialect that every other ethnic group in America is expected to adhere to. I can't speak in a courtroom in my native dialect and be taken seriously, even if I'm in Charleston, West Virginia. (The exceptions to this are in identity politics. Lots of deep southern politicians use their native accent, and then there is the Charleston dialect, which uses proper grammar but drops the "r's", so is therefore acceptable in formal settings.)

Re: Why aren't Cubans, Quebecois, Saudis, Syrians allowed in Google Code Jam

#46

Post by ubernostrum »

kintamanimatt wrote: post #41
pc86 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are we just making stuff up? This is not true. Contests must abide by any local laws or regulations in any jurisdiction they're run in. If you don't run the contest in Quebec (e.g. if you disallow Quebecois entrants) then and only then are you exempt from their laws.

We're not making stuff up. If I run a competition and someone from Belgium enters (and wins) but I have no presence in Belgium, I'm in no way subject to Belgian laws. How can I possibly be? Google doesn't have offices in Venezuela, Colombia, Bolivia, Chile, or South Africa. I highly doubt they're complying with local laws regarding competitions in these jurisdictions! Google are subject to Quebec's laws because they…

I understand that this is something people don't get, but: yes, if you are doing something that can be construed as "doing business" in a country, then you get to be subject to that country's laws regardless of whether you have offices there or have ever set foot on that country's territory.

This is not particularly new. What is new is the general belief I've seen in many people that "but I did it on the internet!" is a magical answer.

Re: Why aren't Cubans, Quebecois, Saudis, Syrians allowed in Google Code Jam

#47

Post by JPKab »

xr09 wrote: post #28

OK I'm a Cuban programmer and can tell you this measure sucks big time, if the blocked government wants anything from Google Code, Sourceforge or any other "restricted" place they have mirrors, nice people on other unblocked countries willing to help and as last resource a tor proxy will do. So this measure only asserts read-only access, nothing else. Actually US goverment looks stupid when do things like this, you c…

Dude, you made my day. I'm pretty fascinated by my Gringo stereotypes of Cuba colliding with a programmer on HN.

I'm picturing a guy with a laptop, palm trees in the background, lots of antique cars driving on the street behind him, a brass band somewhere nearby, a pork sandwich on a plate. Please, please be wearing a Che/Fidel hat.

In all seriousness, I'm curious about the internet situation there. How's the bandwidth these days?

Re: Why aren't Cubans, Quebecois, Saudis, Syrians allowed in Google Code Jam

#48

Post by PeterisP »

kintamanimatt wrote: post #41
pc86 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are we just making stuff up? This is not true. Contests must abide by any local laws or regulations in any jurisdiction they're run in. If you don't run the contest in Quebec (e.g. if you disallow Quebecois entrants) then and only then are you exempt from their laws.

We're not making stuff up. If I run a competition and someone from Belgium enters (and wins) but I have no presence in Belgium, I'm in no way subject to Belgian laws. How can I possibly be? Google doesn't have offices in Venezuela, Colombia, Bolivia, Chile, or South Africa. I highly doubt they're complying with local laws regarding competitions in these jurisdictions! Google are subject to Quebec's laws because they…

If you pay money to someone from Belgium for a service (which, in a legal sense, is how Google Summer of Code works) then that transaction is definitely subject to Belgian laws.

Just as if you sell something to someone from Belgium over the internet, both your and their law applies.

Re: Why aren't Cubans, Quebecois, Saudis, Syrians allowed in Google Code Jam

#49

Post by kintamanimatt »

ubernostrum wrote: post #46
kintamanimatt wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not making stuff up. If I run a competition and someone from Belgium enters (and wins) but I have no presence in Belgium, I'm in no way subject to Belgian laws. How can I possibly be? Google doesn't have offices in Venezuela, Colombia, Bolivia, Chile, or South Africa. I highly doubt they're complying with local laws regarding competitions in these jurisdictions! Google are subject to Quebec's laws because they…

I understand that this is something people don't get, but: yes, if you are doing something that can be construed as "doing business" in a country, then you get to be subject to that country's laws regardless of whether you have offices there or have ever set foot on that country's territory. This is not particularly new. What is new is the general belief I've seen in many people that "but I did it on the internet!" i…

Such laws would be really, really difficult, if not impossible to enforce.

I seem to remember there are certain laws the British government thinks applies to foreign companies that have no ties to the UK but otherwise do business with British residents, but in the same breath says they have no way to enforce them.

Re: Why aren't Cubans, Quebecois, Saudis, Syrians allowed in Google Code Jam

#50

Post by kintamanimatt »

PeterisP wrote: post #48
kintamanimatt wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not making stuff up. If I run a competition and someone from Belgium enters (and wins) but I have no presence in Belgium, I'm in no way subject to Belgian laws. How can I possibly be? Google doesn't have offices in Venezuela, Colombia, Bolivia, Chile, or South Africa. I highly doubt they're complying with local laws regarding competitions in these jurisdictions! Google are subject to Quebec's laws because they…

If you pay money to someone from Belgium for a service (which, in a legal sense, is how Google Summer of Code works) then that transaction is definitely subject to Belgian laws. Just as if you sell something to someone from Belgium over the internet, both your and their law applies.

If I sell something to a Belgian and I'm, say, a Canadian company, I don't suddenly become subject to Belgian law. I don't have to account for distance selling regulations, data protection regulations, VAT, local taxes or anything else. I'd be subject to Canadian law, and that's all. Chances are the contract would even state that the jurisdiction were somewhere in Canada. (Yes, I know contracts aren't always perfectly binding or valid, and just because something is declared in a contract doesn't mean it's enforceable or valid.)

Consumer could sue in Belgian courts but the matter of jurisdiction would arise and that's where the claim would fail.

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