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The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

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Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#41
post #38
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the interesting things Google is doing. Driverless cars is headed up by Sabastian Thrun (PhD). The technical lead on Google Glass is Thad Starner (PhD and professor at my alma mater). Heck, Page and Brin were halfway through their PhD program at Stanford (both have an MS from there) before they founded Google. PageRank was exactly the kind of thing that comes from PhD projects (extension and application of th…

Google's early success was much about the supportive environment for founding a company, not the academics: networking with investors and early hires, getting recommendations from influential professors, than it was about the "PhD project" of PageRank. It was a standard graph algorithm executed on the Internet, not a ground-breaking academic project. (Obviously -- they left school before they did much any work on Pag…

It's not that simple and they did a prototype and published a paper before they left Stanford (three years in). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PageRank. It was conceived as a "citation graph of the web" based on theoretical work in that area: http://web.archive.org/web/20020506051802/www-diglib.stanfor....

You say that today they could've come up through YC. I'm not sure that's true. Would they have the necessary grounding in those "standard graph algorithms" if they had just come straight to YC (or bearing in mind Stanford undergraduates benefit tremendously from the graduate program--skipped college entirely?) I think you're downplaying the interaction of study and invention here.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#42
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is just a continuation of the old "College is a waste of time" thought, but I have noticed a _lot_ of people -- especially from China and India -- enrolling in CS PhD programs the last few years. I talked to a few of them from my college, and an exceedingly common theme seems to be family and peer pressure, so personally, I'd really like to understand more about this topic.

An important, but rarely overtly stated reason for foreigners to attend grad school in the United States is immigration. A graduate degree (esp in STEM disciplines) is a relatively secure way of getting a student visa, getting a job while on OPT, getting an H1B and finally a Green Card. Of course it does not mean that immigration is the sole reason for asians to attend US grad school in hordes, but it is an important…

If we follow this logic for the subset of foreigners attending grad school in the US, why wouldn't they opt for a Masters degree instead of a PhD?

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#1 is also pretty achievable. For example, if you get a Ph.D. studying how to implement compilers and virtual machines, you basically have your choice of which place that implements compiler or VMs to work at (source: I am about to defend my Ph.D. in implementing compilers and VMs).

But how many places are there that do that? You have google, Microsoft, maybe intel, a few companies in the valley. PhDs are very specialized, and so they really can be at the mercy of their hot skill. And even google...might tell you to go work on ads with your hot VM/compiler skills. Disclosure: I'm a PL PhD who got out of the vm/compiler area to focus on PL design, which is even more esoteric.

I know of quite a few data analytics companies that hire mainly PhD's for their research positions. Many traditional companies do so too, to get on the big data trend.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#44
post #26
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An important, but rarely overtly stated reason for foreigners to attend grad school in the United States is immigration. A graduate degree (esp in STEM disciplines) is a relatively secure way of getting a student visa, getting a job while on OPT, getting an H1B and finally a Green Card. Of course it does not mean that immigration is the sole reason for asians to attend US grad school in hordes, but it is an important…

I don't understand the motivation there at all - shouldn't the US be trying to hold on to the most educated foreigners as much as possible?

I used to ask that question and have been told that the US greatly benefits from having US-educated people in positions of power around the world. I don't know if this is true, but what is true that a surprising number of heads of states of countries that are considered political allies of the US have degrees from US universities. I first noticed this trend when reading about Pacific island nations.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#45
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how many places are there that do that? You have google, Microsoft, maybe intel, a few companies in the valley. PhDs are very specialized, and so they really can be at the mercy of their hot skill. And even google...might tell you to go work on ads with your hot VM/compiler skills. Disclosure: I'm a PL PhD who got out of the vm/compiler area to focus on PL design, which is even more esoteric.

I know of quite a few data analytics companies that hire mainly PhD's for their research positions. Many traditional companies do so too, to get on the big data trend.

Yes, but they are hiring PhDs in systems, PL (for some reason, we are good at MapReduce), database, and some data mining fields. Its not like you want to hire an HCI researcher to do big data.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#46

I've been "All But Dissertation" for two years now for a PhD in sociology. I haven't touched my dissertation after having my proposal approved. Instead, I co-founded an organization that addresses the problem that I discovered in my preliminary research. Right now, my decision feels right.

Are you sure you aren't just procrastinating? I'm joking, it sounds like you are doing the right thing.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#47
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concur. My experience with CS PhDs is that they lack the production-oriented mindset needed for the real world. We hired a CS PhD to write reports for us. In six months he did not write one single line of code, but produced a very impressive whitepaper about the code he intended to write. He went on to write more whitepapers for a company specializing in vaporware somewhere else. I've had similar experiences with P…

Meanwhile, the top tech firms aggressively recruit CS PhDs.

In my experience, there are two kinds of CS PhDs, one which is more theory oriented and not very good at coding, and the other which is more systems oriented and tends to attract crack coders too bored to stay in industry.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#48

As a hiring manager of non-specialized software developers, I take people with 4-6 years of real world coding over a phd any day. We generally hire phd's at the same level/pay as a bachelors in cs with maybe only a nominal amount more in salary. the skills you learn as a phd are not really what the industry needs, unless you manage to find one of the small number of jobs that requires whatever specific thing you stud…

I am in the process of finishing up a PhD (Robotics, Cornell) and spent some time looking for jobs outside academia. What you write sounds very familiar because I heard it almost everywhere I looked. There seems to be a widespread misconception that graduate school consists of people focusing on one (usually obscure) topic without ever doing anything that "normal people" would do in a "normal job".

Here's how grad school really works.

At least in the US, completing a PhD requires you to take classes. I took classes in my field (Mechanical Engineering) and in my elected minor field (CS). None of them had anything to do with my research are (modular robotics): Vibrations, Linear Systems, Feedback Control, Intermediate Dynamics, Intro to AI, 3D Perception, Evolutionary Methods, Autonomous Mobile Robots (you get the idea, there are more). I also took a management class and a course on technology commercialization, but that's just me. Basically, they are the same classes Master level students take (and companies pay them a premium for doing so), just more of them.

Very few grad students work on only one project during their PhD program. Many students "bounce around" for a while before selecting an adviser. Sometimes projects don't work out and you switch to something else (happened to me). Sometimes the availability of grants dictates what you are working on and when. And often you just start a new project because the old one is completed. What causes every PhD to have that brief, often obscure sounding, description for their work, is that the thesis describing all those different projects needs one title (not five). When you open the cover of the thesis you might find sections on a wide range of topics covering many areas of expertise that the author had to master before being able to produce original work in their obscure topic area.

There might be disciplines where you can work exclusively on one subject area without using any external tools. I don't know any. As a PhD student you rarely have someone to delegate work to. And because what you do in a PhD is new, you often have to build your own equipment for doing it. As a result of having to do everything yourself, you often end up accumulating experience of varying depth in all kinds of languages and technologies during grad school. Dealing with external suppliers and contract manufacturers is also quite common, at least in engineering. My actual everyday work in grad school is definitely more varied than any job in any of the companies I have seen.

Soft skills are something frequently cited as an area that PhDs are lacking in. I don't agree with this assessment. Some skills are less important in academia (negotiation skills, leadership), but others are more important (endurance, teaching/presentation skills, ability to learn quickly). Only very few scientists are the socially awkward eggheads that popular media portrait them as.

Finally, it's worth pointing out that PhDs have spent several years working in the future. The technology that in development at universities today includes things you might consider cutting edge a few years from now. Your freshly graduate PhD job applicant just spent five years interacting with this stuff and the people building it on a daily basis. If your company can't make use of having somebody from the future work for you, I'd consider that a problem.

Please do yourself (and people like me) a favor and kindly stop pigeon-holing anyone with a PhD as "overspecialized". Have a look at what kind of work they were doing during their five year time in the ivory tower, and see what useful skills they needed to get their maybe-not-so-useful research done. You might be surprised at the breadth. And don't worry if your PhD job applicant's qualifications are a little strange and don't quite fit between any of the department walls in your company. The PhD is used to working interdisciplinary and learning new skills quickly.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#49

I've been "All But Dissertation" for two years now for a PhD in sociology. I haven't touched my dissertation after having my proposal approved. Instead, I co-founded an organization that addresses the problem that I discovered in my preliminary research. Right now, my decision feels right.

Are you sure you aren't just procrastinating? I'm joking, it sounds like you are doing the right thing.

Hehehehe, this is what my advisor thinks :) But honestly, right now, it just feels so good to reject the idea that a doctorate is everything. I've been in school for 12 years!

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#50
post #48

As a hiring manager of non-specialized software developers, I take people with 4-6 years of real world coding over a phd any day. We generally hire phd's at the same level/pay as a bachelors in cs with maybe only a nominal amount more in salary. the skills you learn as a phd are not really what the industry needs, unless you manage to find one of the small number of jobs that requires whatever specific thing you stud…

I am in the process of finishing up a PhD (Robotics, Cornell) and spent some time looking for jobs outside academia. What you write sounds very familiar because I heard it almost everywhere I looked. There seems to be a widespread misconception that graduate school consists of people focusing on one (usually obscure) topic without ever doing anything that "normal people" would do in a "normal job". Here's how grad sc…

you know what I didn't see in your reply? All of the large scale coding projects you implemented and put into production for a while. The big problem is that PhD/MS in CS is just an extension of BS, except you now have 4+ more years of bad coding practice under your belt. From my experience, coming out of school people need to relearn how to code in the real world. It is no more assignments you get functional, or in the case of PhD's mostly throw-away software/hacks that does something for your thesis. This is what I mean by skills that I need. Taking a bunch of random classes is nice for you, but none of them teach you how to write code or design systems in the business world. At least bachelor degrees only have ~4 years of bad coding behind them, and they have all of the fundamentals at that point necessary to be great software developers. Adding another 4+ years of bad coding on top of that does not really help you, this is why we pay PhD/MS candidates the same as a BS CS, because from our perspective they are the same!
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