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Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

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Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#41

Post by icebraining »

n1c wrote: post #29
runn1ng wrote: post #4

Q: What is the Freicoin Foundation? A: The Freicoin Foundation is a non-profit organization, aiming to support sustainability and biodiversity by integrating Freicoin into economical relations. Q: You said that Freicoin is decentralized. But the Foundation makes it centralized! A: You are right. But we have no other solution. Initial coins should be distributed to the society. Q: Why can't you just give these coins t…

My gut tells me that somehow there is room for a "everyone gets N" style ~~ virtual currency ~~. Like you prove your identity and get the same amount that everyone else gets (scrubbed on transfer) because the whole early-adopters-win thing is sucky. But this doesn't look like the answer.

How would you prove your identity?

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#42

Post by wcoenen »

alexjeffrey wrote: post #34
wcoenen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is, what is in it for me to use freicoin? Perhaps the advantages of bitcoin but without the instability. If bitcoin continues to go through boom and bust cycles that change its value by orders of magnitude, then ironically an alternative with demurrage might prove to be a better store of value. You might lose some of your savings, but at least it'll be predictable.

that's not a very compelling argument given traditional-currency savings accounts will at least grant you very small interest rates.

Sure, but you get the other advantages of bitcoin. I interpreted the question as coming from a bitcoin user: "why use bitcoin+demurrage if I can just use bitcoin?"

If you have already decided that a savings account with interest is an even better way to store value, then my argument indeed doesn't work.

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#43

Post by patio11 »

h2s wrote: post #33

Does anybody else feel that the current proliferation of P2P cryptocurrencies looks symptomatic of a pyramid scheme that has proven its viability (in the form of BTC) and is now being repeated by unscrupulous copycats who smell a quick buck? I'm not calling the concept of BTC-style cryptocurrency a deliberate, malicious pyramid scheme in itself. I think this is an unintended side-effect.

Yes. Well, qualified yes: I don't believe that the new cryptocurrencies are more of a pump-and-dump than Bitcoin is. The pump-and-dump model is intrinsic to why Bitcoin is popular: creating lots of widely distributed coins early, then making them increasingly dear, creates a built-in base of... let me be charitable and call them "cryptocurrency evangelists", who have high incentive to go to their local online watering holes and claim that Bitcoin is the next big thing.

The equilibrium is predictable:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2608891

[Y]ou can create an arbitrarily high number of bitcoin-like electronic currency units. [These new varieties will have] guaranteed scarcity, anonymity, and a new goldrush phase -- so if you got dumped rather than pumped, you have a new opportunity to start at the top of the pyramid scheme this time.

The equilibrium is that sooner or later expected returns on starting a new distributed pump-and-dump dwarf expected returns of getting in late on bitcoins. And then poof.

Bitcoin is a wonderful engineering achievement: a spontaneously organized, decentralized, peer-to-peer boiler room from which arises a mediocre transaction processing network.

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#44

Post by jstalin »

rrrrtttt wrote: post #39

I'd like to hijack the daily Bitcoin thread for a tangential discussion. My dad used to have a stamp collection. Back in the day most people would give you a funny look if you told them you collect stamps, but it was pretty cool to browse the collection and see all those stamps from all over the world. And the really rare stamps could cost quite a lot of money. So here's the question: is Bitcoin more valuable than st…

Value is subjective. Water is very valuable in the desert, but not so valuable in the middle of the Pacific. Diamonds are valuable in downtown Chicago, not so much to someone surviving in a lifeboat. During the hyperinflation of Germany in the 20's, people were trading furs and antiques for food. It's all subjective.

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#45

Post by cjg »

nodata wrote: post #14
kiba wrote: post #13

One does not simply invent a currency to solve a percevied problem in our economic system. A currency must also provide compelling economic reasons to actors for adoption. That is, what is in it for me to use freicoin? I don't see any reason to give money, buy, or sell, or do anything with freicoin. To me, the fact that freicoin decays when not used is a bug, not feature.

Encouraging currency to be used/passed around more is not a bug for me. Might interest you: http://www.lietaer.com/2010/03/the-worgl-experiment/

It makes it harder to accumulate wealth. This may or may not be a good thing depending on your point of view.

Taken to an extreme, it's move back to hunter-gather societies when you had to work every day - no stored capital.

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#46

Post by tptacek »

kiba wrote: post #13

One does not simply invent a currency to solve a percevied problem in our economic system. A currency must also provide compelling economic reasons to actors for adoption. That is, what is in it for me to use freicoin? I don't see any reason to give money, buy, or sell, or do anything with freicoin. To me, the fact that freicoin decays when not used is a bug, not feature.

Irony aneurysm!

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#47

Post by rrrrtttt »

jstalin wrote: post #44
rrrrtttt wrote: post #39

I'd like to hijack the daily Bitcoin thread for a tangential discussion. My dad used to have a stamp collection. Back in the day most people would give you a funny look if you told them you collect stamps, but it was pretty cool to browse the collection and see all those stamps from all over the world. And the really rare stamps could cost quite a lot of money. So here's the question: is Bitcoin more valuable than st…

Value is subjective. Water is very valuable in the desert, but not so valuable in the middle of the Pacific. Diamonds are valuable in downtown Chicago, not so much to someone surviving in a lifeboat. During the hyperinflation of Germany in the 20's, people were trading furs and antiques for food. It's all subjective.

Saying that value is subjective is tautological, it's like saying pretty girls are pretty. What's the base case of the recursion? With stock certificates, you have expectations of future dividends. With stamps, they're nice to look at. What do you have with Bitcoin?

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#48

Post by jimktrains2 »

h2s wrote: post #33

Does anybody else feel that the current proliferation of P2P cryptocurrencies looks symptomatic of a pyramid scheme that has proven its viability (in the form of BTC) and is now being repeated by unscrupulous copycats who smell a quick buck? I'm not calling the concept of BTC-style cryptocurrency a deliberate, malicious pyramid scheme in itself. I think this is an unintended side-effect.

I'm still not getting why people call it a pyramid scheme. I don't make money by getting other people involved.

Sure, by getting others involved I increase the likelihood of it succeeding, but...that's everything.

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#49

Post by jimktrains2 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #35

What tickles me is that the people who criticise Wall Street for the value-less financial engineering of real estate, equities, commodities, etc., i.e. productive assets, turn around and start trying to create value out of thin air in fiat/social financial engineering schemes. I'm not commenting on the value of either activity directly as much as the asymmetry in holding both views simultaneously.

I think if you drilled a lot of people you'd end up with them being OK with all the financial engineering stuff, but _not_ OK with Wall Street risking _other_ people's money, not their own.

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#50

Post by jdotjdot »

Some of the comments in the FAQ don't make any sense.

  Q: Why does Freicoin use demurrage? I'm worried that my coins will just fade away.
  A: Worried? It's a good thing. If the amount of money was stable, people would prefer saving it as opposed to spending it. This would decrease the quantity of money circulated, which in turn would act against the main purpose of money - a medium of exchange. With demurrage in place, you should think about money as it's meant to be, not as a storage medium of wealth.
This is quite an assertion--generally, money is taught to be both a store of value and a medium of exchange. What are you exchanging if there's no value in it?

There are also some really odd grammatical errors:

  Q: With a zero interest rate, investments will be impossible!
  A: It's already possible, for example, in Islam banking...
"Islam banking"?
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