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Open Source Events Get Burned By PayPal

pydanny.com

41–50 of 51 posts

Re: Open Source Events Get Burned By PayPal

#41
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like EventBrite? http://www.eventbrite.com/

Eventbrite doesn't pay out until 5 days after the event, but at least they announce that up front and don't tend to randomly freeze accounts and hold on to your money indefinitely.

And sometimes, if they like you, they pay out early.

Re: Open Source Events Get Burned By PayPal

#42
post #37

Paypal is a long-time client of my consulting firm, and several of their trust and security people are good friends. They are not stupid or malicious. Unlike the author, they are cognizant of a basic truth about the Internet: In any situation involving money, every loophole or mechanism for scamming people will eventually be discovered and then exploited to an extent you never believed possible. Just as the Internet…

This is the best counterargument I've seen, and you're right, professional fraud is a huge problem. However, it's trivial for such a huge company to be a LOT better at z. customer service and b. dealing with highly-publicised and repeated problems for entirely public and transparent small-medium sized events. They will lose their monopoly. It's up to them how much they lose.

Re: Open Source Events Get Burned By PayPal

#43
post #9
post #4

Maybe there's a business idea in payment processing for events.

I think there are enough payment services, we don't need another one. We need a central one. PayPal is really big and seen as many as the way for online payments. And I agree, it works really easily and good. Only there are the problems as mentioned in the article...

Yes, and there are too many business software companies too. Why can't we just leave it all to Microsoft, and we'll all be happy?

Re: Open Source Events Get Burned By PayPal

#44
post #8

I can't help but mention Bitcoin here. For international things like open source events, it would work just perfectly. Especially given the tech audience that is attracted to these, Bitcoin might be the easiest way to pay for opensource conferences.

Most Bitcoin owners do not use secure hardware for storing their digital money, and payee identities are poorly verified. Therefore if Bitcoin became popular, it would be eaten alive by fraud and computer intrusion.

Re: Open Source Events Get Burned By PayPal

#45

Wow, I find it amazing that there is so much augery going on in this post. Ooo, maybe paypal hates python conferences! Maybe they just hate open source conferences! And then they go on to describe how they refuse to kowtow to the obviously made up "needs of paypal's anti-fraud division". There are lots of reasons to get mad at paypal but all too often the formula "We understood nothing about business, didn't even bot…

Agreed. I organized a startup conference ( http://thestartupconference.com ) for 3 years in 4 cities, always with PayPal as payment. Some advice: make sure you are incorporated. Definitely don't use a personal account to receive payments. Assume that most of the money may be stuck for a while, but know that you'll get your payments eventually, so arrange for backup financing. Bottom line: if you do this as an amateur…

> know that you'll get your payments eventually, so arrange for backup financing.

How easy would you say it would be to get a loan with "I have $N-thousand dollars stuck in my Paypal account, expected to clear" as collateral?

...actually, wait, that sounds like a [banking] startup idea:

> "We accept payments for an event into an escrow pool, then lend you (with interest) a percentage of the escrow-pool as an advance to set up the event, then release the escrow-pool to you automatically if-and-only-if there aren't too many complaints after the event [otherwise the issue goes to a set-length arbitration, and then we either release the money to you, or refund it in its entirety.] For trusted repeat event-creators, we may increase the loan percentage up to 100%, and may delay loan-interest accrual until after the event-date. We're also partnered with an event underwriter who you can allow us to ensure your event with automatically, in case of black-swan event failure."

Is anyone doing this? Is it even feasible?

Re: Open Source Events Get Burned By PayPal

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you haven't identified PayPal's concern. It's not sussing out whether a conference is real or fake. All of the money is at risk even in a real conference, run by a trustworthy person. You want their evangelists to reach out to conference organizers. If they were intimately involved in every single developer conference worldwide, it still would not eliminate PayPal's risk. It wouldn't solve the pro…

It's worse than that. What happens when the event organizer, operating 100% in good faith, buys equipment, pays for airfare and lodging for special guests and event staff, pays deposits for the space, etc. and then due to events outside of their control the event has to be cancelled (perhaps due to a hurricane or maybe the bass player in the band decides to go into rehab and the concert gets cancelled, which happened…

That sounds like a reason to run every event as an individually-incorporated LLC, and then, in such a situation, let it go bankrupt.

Re: Open Source Events Get Burned By PayPal

#47
post #37

Paypal is a long-time client of my consulting firm, and several of their trust and security people are good friends. They are not stupid or malicious. Unlike the author, they are cognizant of a basic truth about the Internet: In any situation involving money, every loophole or mechanism for scamming people will eventually be discovered and then exploited to an extent you never believed possible. Just as the Internet…

At its heart, though, this isn't a service problem; it's a customer service and UX problem.

Imagine that instead of the current Paypal interface, you had the following:

> Instead of having one email address to accept all payments, you created a new sub-account for each event/product/other "stream of payments" that you want to send/receive.

> Creating a "receive payments" sub-account pops up a wizard, that asks you what these payments are expected to be relating to--a product you sell, a subscription service, an event, donations, etc.

> If you pick "one-time event"--the fraud department is called down to verify you and your business up-front. It all gets explained in the interface, your sub-account just will be in a "verifying" state for a few days/weeks, you'll get phone calls and have to submit paperwork to make it "active." Meanwhile, the rest of your account continues to work and none of your other payments get frozen.

> This is on top of the fraud detection that already happens. If you suddenly receive $50k, no matter what the sub-account said it was for, then sure, pause that sub-account and have the fraud guys take a look. But if they pull up the account and the payment pattern exactly matches what they themselves already OKed you to do up-front--then turn right around and unpause it.

...

Now, this all already happens with Paypal! Big corporations know what to do to make Paypal work like this--create a new Paypal account for each venture, get Paypal on the phone yourself and submit all the paperwork and get them to OK it before you declare it safe to start using that account, etc.

But none of this is obvious to the average small-business owner who may have never used an online payment system before. They just use one account for everything, get popular for whatever reason, accept a bunch of payments or donations all at once, and get their entire funding stream suddenly frozen while Paypal does due diligence that should have happened at the beginning of the process, not right when the money is needed most.

Re: Open Source Events Get Burned By PayPal

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it, precisely, that you think justifies the use of bitcoin? Here, let's make this simple. Just list, explicitly, the top 3 reasons for using bitcoin. Then explain how these reasons are unique to bitcoin and also how they fully justify dealing with the problems of dealing with bitcoin (variable exchange rates, difficulty of converting into local denomination funds, etc.).

1) Bitcoins are easily transferable (P2P) 2) Bitcoin transactions are irreversible 3) No third party is involved for the essential transaction (in this case the exchange of Bitcoin(s) for a ticket) If you use Bitcoins as a method of transporting money you can cash them out as soon as you get them (which is within a few minutes) and getting Bitcoins isn't as hard as people make it out to be.

> If you use Bitcoins as a method of transporting money you can cash them out as soon as you get them (which is within a few minutes) and getting Bitcoins isn't as hard as people make it out to be.

I'm surprised nobody has made a service that transparently uses bitcoins to send someone not-bitcoins:

[For the purposes of the example, let's call the sender of the money Alice, the receiver Bob, and the two instances of this Exchanger service Eddie and Edna. Eddie is local to Alice's legal/financial jurisdiction, and Edna to Bob's.]

1. Alice, living in America, visits Eddie and tells him that she wants to send Bob, in Canada, $50 USD. Bob is only identified to Alice (and thereby to Eddie) by his bitcoin deposit address.[1]

2. Alice pays Eddie $50 USD (cash, Paypal, ACH, pre-deposited funds, an IOU, whatever);

3. Eddie buys bitcoins with those dollars, and transfers the bitcoins to Bob's address.

Then, separately, Bob set up his bitcoin bank with an "on deposit" webhook that calls Edna. When triggered,

4. Edna, acting under an access token Bob granted her through the webhook, withdraws the deposit into her own bitcoin bank account;

5. Edna immediately sells the bitcoins for CAD, thus preventing any currency volatility;

4. Edna sends Bob an email saying "you've got $51.42 CAD[2]", with a URL;

5. Bob visits the URL, and enters his [real, physical] bank account routing information;

6. Edna does a wire-transfer from her account to Bob's bank account.

In this example, Bob and Alice never meet. Eddie and Edna never meet, nor have to trust one-another. The money is exchanged anonymously and securely. And yet, neither Alice nor Bob ever touch a bitcoin, or deal with the volatility of the currency.

Why doesn't this exist yet?

---

[1] This could be encapsulated further if Eddie and Edna both subscribe to Ronald the name-Registrar; then Edna could transparently register Bob as "bob@ronald", and Bob could tell Alice to send her money to that alias.

[2] Assuming neither Eddie nor Edna take a cut of this transaction.

Re: Open Source Events Get Burned By PayPal

#50
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I organized a startup conference ( http://thestartupconference.com ) for 3 years in 4 cities, always with PayPal as payment. Some advice: make sure you are incorporated. Definitely don't use a personal account to receive payments. Assume that most of the money may be stuck for a while, but know that you'll get your payments eventually, so arrange for backup financing. Bottom line: if you do this as an amateur…

> know that you'll get your payments eventually, so arrange for backup financing. How easy would you say it would be to get a loan with "I have $N-thousand dollars stuck in my Paypal account, expected to clear" as collateral? ...actually, wait, that sounds like a [banking] startup idea: > "We accept payments for an event into an escrow pool, then lend you (with interest) a percentage of the escrow-pool as an advance…

This sounds like a cashflow loan, which FastPay does http://gofastpay.com/.

I think it can also be described as factoring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoring_(finance). And lots of companies are involved in this space, though there is still room for improvement.

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