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College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

nytimes.com

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Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#41

Post by nazgulnarsil »

arjunnarayan wrote: post #34
montecarl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something is wrong with people that that they choose to go to schools that cost $100,000 to get degrees in fashion and/or retail management.

Something is really wrong with a regime that _lends_ an 18 year old $100,000 for an art degree. This is only possible because the lender is guaranteed paybacks no matter what (because the borrower cannot default). If we let borrowers default on loans under certain criteria (say, their annual income was below a certain threshold), then lenders would have to actually vet the students degrees --- and then we might have…

Wringing every ounce of income out of someone who is otherwise a waste of space seems like a feature not a bug. I just laugh at moral outrage over stupid white americans getting "screwed." Especially when it's entirely voluntary.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#42

Post by strlen »

SlipperySlope wrote: post #10

Did this catch the attention of anyone else? “I am over $100,000 in student loan debt right now,” said Megan Parker, who earns $37,000 as the firm’s receptionist. She graduated from the Art Institute of Atlanta in 2011 with a degree in fashion and retail management, and spent months waiting on “bridezillas” at a couture boutique, among other stores, while churning out office-job applications. ----- Something is very,…

"Art Institute of X" where X is not Chicago usually implies a for-profit institution owned by EDMC ("educational management corporation").

Academy of Art (in SF) is quite similar, but perhaps more known regionally: in both cases they seem to provide some kind of legitimate training in commercial art (by itself a respectable discipline), but it's probably fair to say that they draw in students who aren't quite aware of what they've signed up for and the how far they will go into debt.

Many students at these schools aren't even interested in art, fashion, or film per se: for some it's the last chance at graduation (some came after transferring through as many as six schools, etc...)

I think for-profit universities (and perhaps, lower-tier private law schools) represent the educational bubble very well: in all cases I think they provide legitimate training and can be a value-add to many individuals. Problem is the rate at which they (effectively) sell degrees is much higher than the rate at which the (already limited) market for holders of those degrees grows. This is definitely thanks to the ease of getting student loans.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#43

Post by rayiner »

suresk wrote: post #26
montecarl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something is wrong with people that that they choose to go to schools that cost $100,000 to get degrees in fashion and/or retail management.

Maybe. But I think the school system (K-12 and higher education) are somewhat culpable here. Starting fairly early, we teach students that there are a bunch of hoops they need to jump through in order to get a good job later in life. For an 18 year old, it is easy to see college as just another (and hopefully last) hoop to jump through. Colleges (and the for-profit schools are exceptionally bad here) show them a rosy…

I disagree that telling kids that there are hoops to jump through is the problem. There are hoops to jump through. The problem is telling kids to major in what they're interested in. The "follow your bliss" crap instead of "follow a paycheck."

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#44

Post by rtpg »

aaron695 wrote: post #30
[deleted] wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

This is so disingenuous and plain misleading and I see it around a bit. Most of them, if not all went to Uni. They then made great contacts and could pull out because they became successful early. Without Uni, they possibly would all be nobodies.

This. Meeting people is the most important part of uni by far. Loads of people will otherwise not meet other motivated people to take on big things.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#45

Post by rayiner »

bobwaycott wrote: post #13
dmm wrote: post #5

Requiring a degree is a way to filter resumes. If you get 200 applications to a position and requiring a degree allows you to narrow that down to 30, why not?

I believe we are soon moving to where this excuse for carefully considering candidates will no longer hold. More people with college degrees will make that significantly higher. Also, 15%? Is that accurate, or are you just throwing numbers out there cos you think 85% of job applicants really do not have college degrees?

What makes you think that, as college degrees become more common, employers will "carefully consider" candidates instead? They are just as likely to look for other cheap, easy filters: like college ranking, graduate degrees, etc. You already see this in some fields. E.g. it's almost impossible to get a decent-paying job with just a BS in Chem/Bio these days.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#46

Post by fractalsea »

niggler wrote: post #31
jtreminio wrote: post #6

Being a web developer often times feels like I live in backwards land. I went to UTD for 1.5 semesters. I ended up with $2,000 in student loans (paid off!). I make a stupid amount of money, work from home in my pajamas, and have great benefits. I also do contract work on the side that pushes my income even higher. To top it all off, I love what I do and can't imagine myself doing anything else. Compare that with frie…

The degrees are important when it's difficult to demonstrate skill. When you can't put together a portfolio of work, you need external signals, and pedigree is a commonly accepted signal (to a great extent, due to the fact that those with a strong pedigree are usually the ones hiring and they promulgate that type of thinking) Web development is one area where its possible to construct a portfolio and have others eval…

With sites like github this is true for any tech job. Think how much code you could write and put on github if you didn't go to college and worked solely on you own projects for three years.

This is true for any field where you are required to create things (art, design, etc.).

It's harder for subjects like history, but if you put your mind to it you could do a lot of your own research in a particular area over three years and write your own book, for example.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#47

Post by rdouble »

strlen wrote: post #42
SlipperySlope wrote: post #10

Did this catch the attention of anyone else? “I am over $100,000 in student loan debt right now,” said Megan Parker, who earns $37,000 as the firm’s receptionist. She graduated from the Art Institute of Atlanta in 2011 with a degree in fashion and retail management, and spent months waiting on “bridezillas” at a couture boutique, among other stores, while churning out office-job applications. ----- Something is very,…

"Art Institute of X" where X is not Chicago usually implies a for-profit institution owned by EDMC ("educational management corporation"). Academy of Art (in SF) is quite similar, but perhaps more known regionally: in both cases they seem to provide some kind of legitimate training in commercial art (by itself a respectable discipline), but it's probably fair to say that they draw in students who aren't quite aware o…

Academy of Art in SF is an awesome business scam where the owners turn student loans and international student tuition dollars into tax free real estate holdings.

"For those keeping track, Academy of Art University now owns 1.93 million square feet of space in 41 properties in San Francisco. This includes 22 academic and office properties and 19 residential buildings. The school owns everything from historic landmarks like the Cannery on Fisherman's Wharf to St. Brigid's Church on Van Ness to prime south financial district buildings like 79 and 180 New Montgomery St."

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/blog/real-estate/201...

Google "art academy sf real estate" - there's articles like this going back to 2001.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#48

Post by ebiester »

camus wrote: post #22
ebiester wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you start a company without money? It's hard to start any business without a minimum of cash flow. I know my parents couldn't have fronted me the money...

you dont get a lot of cashflow if you begin your professional life with a 100.000$ debt.

So, an eighteen year old without that debt is going to have a better shot? Let's not talk about the case where the child has a trust fund, or wealthy parents, or is incredible at a skill. Let's talk about the average 18 year old.

Considering that nobody in their right mind would give that 18 year old a business loan, where are they getting this capital to start a business? (Remember, due to the recession, the traditional entry level job is taken by people with significantly more experience, making the skill and income acquisition portion of the program harder.)

When I hear this advice, I usually hear it from people born on second base and think they hit a double.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#49

Post by ebiester »

fractalsea wrote: post #46
niggler wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The degrees are important when it's difficult to demonstrate skill. When you can't put together a portfolio of work, you need external signals, and pedigree is a commonly accepted signal (to a great extent, due to the fact that those with a strong pedigree are usually the ones hiring and they promulgate that type of thinking) Web development is one area where its possible to construct a portfolio and have others eval…

With sites like github this is true for any tech job. Think how much code you could write and put on github if you didn't go to college and worked solely on you own projects for three years. This is true for any field where you are required to create things (art, design, etc.). It's harder for subjects like history, but if you put your mind to it you could do a lot of your own research in a particular area over three…

You have to hit the lottery with parents who will go along with this program. :) My parents would have looked at me like I sprouted another arm.

Like they did when I was about to drop out of school and start at the community college in the mid-90s so that I could get an IT degree and move to silicon valley. In retrospect, it wouldn't have been a bad idea -- they were teaching COBOL and Fortran after all. :)

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