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German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

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Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#41
post #40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand from German friends you need a certificate from an "office management" school to do secretarial work. There are internships for the most mundane jobs. Not to attack, but as an outsider it certainly seems to me that Germany (as a generalization and especially outside the software industry) has a title fetish.

It is not title fetishism, it is quality control and it is very good. This means that when you want to have someone working for you, you can be ensured the person as the adequate formation. I am French, having spent a couple of years now in Germany, some in Denmark and before some times in the US, I can tell you this is wonderful. If you need someone to fix something in your house, you can be sure he knows about it.…

As a customer, sometimes I need the guy who can do a cheap job on an easy task. Sometimes I'll spend more to get someone with a more proven record (i.e. from a rating service or an agency or recommendations) for the more critical tasks.

As a worker, I would like the opportunity to switch careers/find my way without having to take multi-year training courses for every possible job.

Same about products: sometimes all I need is a cheap drill from Walmart and not an expensive Bosch one that would last me a lifetime.

I can't read the articles right now, but I've seen the book in Germany and it did look interesting! :-)

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#42
post #38
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand from German friends you need a certificate from an "office management" school to do secretarial work. There are internships for the most mundane jobs. Not to attack, but as an outsider it certainly seems to me that Germany (as a generalization and especially outside the software industry) has a title fetish.

No. Having a certificate is helpful but not required. For office management and several other jobs you have the choice between attending a specialized school or doing an apprenticeship in conjunction with attending a vocational school [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system

That's what I mean, going to school for a secretarial job while not getting paid/having a very limited pay for a part time job in the background. Same with other low tire positions - beginning sales person, etc.

Alternative: gain valuable job experience from day 1 (ok, maybe week 2 after a short local training) and be fired after 3 months if you're unsuccessful and showing no potential. Unheard of in (non-Eastern) Europe.

[/rant] :)

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#43
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me delve into the speculation about culture a bit more: Back in the day of the emperors/kings, titles and medals were were an extremely cheap way of rewarding somebody without actually paying them. What this incentive system needed to work was a society that respected those titles, so you were and and even today are allowed to use those titles (examples: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichtakademischer_Titel ). Thi…

Strictly speaking, in Germany you don't use the PhD (Dr.) with your name, you just use your full name. Getting a "Dr." is a name change, while getting a diploma or masters degree is not.

Strictly speaking, it's not. You can write your PhD in your passport (only in the long form, like "Dr. med.") in a separate field, but you don't have to, and it won't be part of your name anyway.

Source: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/pa_g_1986/__4.html [Law in German]

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#44
post #36
post #31

I don't think that Germans have a "Title-fetish", in general they couldn't care less. I'm working in engineering, having a Physics PhD myself, but titles are never mentioned in daily work. Politicians on the other hand had always tried to give themselves some additinal credibility by bragging about their alleged academic merits, but searching for plagiatism was not something anyone would seriously had thought to enda…

My own feeling is that Germans guard quite strongly their societal and cultural goods; advanced degrees are a status indicator and it's not a surprise that incorrectly-gained degrees cause outrage to me. Perceived pollution in the shared consciousness inevitably causes punishment and expulsion. Other ways in which Germans guard their societal structure: -- highly regulated Sunday opening hours, even in big cities, os…

-- strict adherence to rules and procedures in aspects of life that most cultures don't care about (clear your sidewalk of snow and ride your bicycle only on the correct side of the sidewalk, for example).

Not very good examples:

--When someone falls in front of your house it is your responsibility (not an 'act of god' as it says in english law) - you can get sued for that.

--As an adult you can't ride on the sidewalks - if you want to, that particular piece of sidewalk has to be marked as a bicycle path (which makes sense considering the high difference in speed between pedestrians and cyclists). In reality nobody cares about bicycle paths so you get an obstacle course of trash cans, cars (and their doors) and pedestrians...

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#45
post #44
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My own feeling is that Germans guard quite strongly their societal and cultural goods; advanced degrees are a status indicator and it's not a surprise that incorrectly-gained degrees cause outrage to me. Perceived pollution in the shared consciousness inevitably causes punishment and expulsion. Other ways in which Germans guard their societal structure: -- highly regulated Sunday opening hours, even in big cities, os…

-- strict adherence to rules and procedures in aspects of life that most cultures don't care about (clear your sidewalk of snow and ride your bicycle only on the correct side of the sidewalk, for example). Not very good examples: --When someone falls in front of your house it is your responsibility (not an 'act of god' as it says in english law) - you can get sued for that. --As an adult you can't ride on the sidewal…

Your first point basically matches mine - in a lot of other countries, it is an act of God. Only in central European countries is it considered to be the responsibility of the home owner. After all, if you don't have power over that sidewalk, why should you have responsibility over it? Unless, of course, it works out as best for the society...

Germany has something like the absolute best set of bicycle lanes of any country in the world, with the possible exception of the low countries. That you are still unhappy about the way that people treat them is a very strong indication of my point ;-) Come look at the bike lanes in Spain, France, the US or the UK, instead.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#47
Germans place a greater premium on doctorates than Americans do as marks of distinction and erudition. [...] According to the Web site Research in Germany, about 25,000 Germans earn doctorates each year, the most in Europe and about twice the per capita rate of the United States.

Visiting a university in Germany is almost free. More people having a "Diplom" degree means that if you want to stand out you have to aim for a "Doktor". (I use "Diplom" and "Doktor" here since the mentioned fraud-cases stem from a time without bachelors and masters) - that's the easy explanation.

Here in the homeland of schadenfreude, the zeal for unmasking academic frauds also reflects certain Teutonic traits, including a rigid adherence to principle and a know-it-all streak.

I wouldn't subscribe to the word "fetish" but there is a certain "Teutonic Trait" here and the acadmic fraud cases are just one symptom of something deeper.

People in this society, contrary to what many of them claim, feel a deep need for an authority to follow. [...] It's in them to worship authority and to totally rely on it.[...] It makes sense to me that a strong and faithful believer [...], can in his disappointment become so venomous when, as he feels, that authority has failed him. It's this huge disappointment that turns blind obedience into an uncontrolled need for slaughter. - http://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Hitlers-Room-American-ebook/dp/B... (a funny but often stupid book, nonetheless I think here the author has a point on us Germans)

A society, keen for authority, provides a reliable way for elite offspring to fill the upper ranks of politics or public service. Our fraternities are almost always tied to one of the two major political parties (SPD or CDU). While beeing a great asset for students after graduation (Alumni-Network) their main service for that offspring is to use all the dirty tricks to get you your (law) diploma. Since these student bodies are very old and established, they often fill the ranks of the personnel in the universities. They might be the ones doing the evaluation of your thesis. They can provide you with the tests beforehand and even if they can't they usually keep log of every test written by a professor, so they can provide you at least with a good approximation of future tests.

It doesn't wonder that there's an established market for ghostwriters providing you those titles, since you have so many people using that "reliable path to power" that don't seek the academic or professional acceptance at all. Most of Germany's politicians are lawyers and most of them never seen a court from the inside.

For me, this Title-Thing is a teutonic trait but it's not tied to genes but tied to culture. And culture can change. This German Title-Mania is getting less. For instance, you don't have to own a "Meister"-Title to open up certain businesses anymore since recently. How this disposal of the "Meisterpflicht" (allowance to open a business is tied to having a Meister-Title, by law) came upon, though, tells about the difference between Germany and the US: It wasn't a succesful grassroot kind of story, demanding personal/economic freedom, but an order from the EU.

And the sentence "an order from above" sums up pretty much every German right or freedom we were entitled to during our history. That makes us prone to dislinkg "game-changers" because, if you spent time obeying the rules, you won't loose on that investment by letting others take shortcuts. This translates to less career changers than in the US, and a higher stigma if you do. It translates to total absence of entrepreneurs or acclaimed business people from entering a political race, because social envy gives them no cance there. This translates to parts of our Acadamia being a thought free market of status. We don't have an american culture of self-education. And the term "Populärwissenschaft", scientists releasing books for the masses, is considered an insult in German Acadamia.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#48
post #37
post #31

I don't think that Germans have a "Title-fetish", in general they couldn't care less. I'm working in engineering, having a Physics PhD myself, but titles are never mentioned in daily work. Politicians on the other hand had always tried to give themselves some additinal credibility by bragging about their alleged academic merits, but searching for plagiatism was not something anyone would seriously had thought to enda…

From what I understand from German friends you need a certificate from an "office management" school to do secretarial work. There are internships for the most mundane jobs. Not to attack, but as an outsider it certainly seems to me that Germany (as a generalization and especially outside the software industry) has a title fetish.

I live in Germany and I claim that Austria (Germany's neighbouring country) has a title fetish. Austria's title fetish is said to be a relict from Austro-Hungarian Monarchy times that has preserved there until today (although it is declining slowly).

To give an example: on many tombstones on Austrian graveyards the official titles the person had are written; even more strange: for women even the title of their men is implied in the title on their tomb stones (for example: "Oberamtsratsgattin" (I really find this word funny) - a word that cannot really expressed in English for a lack of words for official titles; I'd translate it clumsily with "wife of a man that was a public official with the official title "Oberamtsrat" [a rather respected official title]")

So if you claim Germans have a title fetish, go to Austria. When you come back, you'll consider Germany a really-not-title-obsessed contry.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#49
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they even adress you as Herr Magister, not only Dr. :D

Magister is Austria not Germany

"Magister" is also a German academic title (that was not uncommon in Germany before the Bologna reform to graduate in especially in humane disciplines). But it's only common to adress someone as "Herr Magister" in Austria.
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