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Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

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Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#41

Post by the_watcher »

sageikosa wrote: post #2

Unless the metrics used for the ratings are based upon things like per capita salary x-many years after graduation (broken out into specific fields of study and private/public sectors), then it all comes down to either a popularity contest, or a measure of how well a school's policies reflect the latest "progressive" education practices. In other words, unless it shows what the student "gets" out of the experience wh…

When you measure by these metrics, you end up getting the law school scam, where schools employ unemployed graduates for juuust long enough to count them as long term employed, and only make an effort to collect the salary of highly paid graduates (and use "reported salaries" as their denominator, not total grads)

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#42

Post by sageikosa »

27182818284 wrote: post #22
Cookingboy wrote: post #6

The currently most cited US college ranking is done by U.S News, which is heavily favored toward small private institutions from the east coast. I always find it irritating that a world renowned research power house such as UC Berkeley can't even make it into the top 20 ranking, where as schools such as Emory and Vanderbilt are ranked higher. It ALMOST feels like an east coast old money circle-jerk. I guess with the…

Rankings are broken. I looked into it as part of a startup idea and even memorized the U.S. News 2012 rankings. The 2012 rankings were super easy to memorize because the schools are almost exactly where you'd expect them ranked based simply on pop-culture guesses. This even happened when lawyers were asked to rank the best law schools. Consider this fun excerpt from the New Yorker where they ranked a law school that…

At least 20 years ago, Penn State was in the top 4 for geography. It has definitely never been in the middle of the pack when it comes to Earth Sciences.

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#43

Post by masonhensley »

Cookingboy wrote: post #30
davmre wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been to UC Berkeley? As a current grad student here: it's a fantastic research university and a beautiful campus, but the undergraduate experience is terrible. Classes are giant and there's very little faculty/student interaction, because the focus of the faculty is, for better or for worse, not on undergraduate education. Yes, there are some incredible undergrads and some great opportunities for the 0.…

I went to UT Austin, which is a very similar school. All the negatives you mentioned are certainly valid, but U.S News's ranking isn't just an undergrad ranking, it's an overall university ranking. And even for undergrad, career prospect for a CS undergrad from a UC school is probably SLIGHTLY better than a liberal arts grad from Vanderbilt.

Are you under the impression that Vanderbilt is a liberal arts school without a school of engineering? That's not the case.

I dont think it even has liberal arts major, heck they don't even have an undergrad business degree because they want you to actually pick something to major in.

Disclosure- I'm a Vandy Engineering School grad

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#44

Post by sageikosa »

the_watcher wrote: post #41
sageikosa wrote: post #2

Unless the metrics used for the ratings are based upon things like per capita salary x-many years after graduation (broken out into specific fields of study and private/public sectors), then it all comes down to either a popularity contest, or a measure of how well a school's policies reflect the latest "progressive" education practices. In other words, unless it shows what the student "gets" out of the experience wh…

When you measure by these metrics, you end up getting the law school scam, where schools employ unemployed graduates for juuust long enough to count them as long term employed, and only make an effort to collect the salary of highly paid graduates (and use "reported salaries" as their denominator, not total grads)

OK, I'm not advocating that those metrics must be used, and must be collected in a certain way. What I am doing is being critical of rankings that aren't at least related in some way to the reasons most people seek higher education.

If anything, I am most critical of a single ranking that is supposed to tell me how good something is crafted from within the community that is being ranked.

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#45

Post by a3voices »

elliptic wrote: post #19
jiggy2011 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably objectively true.

Probably not for useful definitions of "generous," which should take into account the actual utility (in money or time), given away. Someone who donates half of their life savings of 50k is (I would say, at least) more generous than someone who donates 90% of 1 billion.

I would say the person with 50k is making a larger personal sacrifice, but is not being "more generous" objectively.

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#46

Post by spikels »

Irregardless wrote: post #20

> “The report concluded that there were observable, repeatable and verifiable ways of measuring teacher effectiveness,” wrote Gates in the letter. Anonymous student surveys that asked such questions as “Does your teacher use class time well, get class organized quickly, help you when you are confused" – were proven to provide useful feedback as were reports from trained professionals observing teachers at work. Stude…

You should look into the details of MET Project that is mentioned as the source of Gates' claim. As is often the case the reporter mangled or left out many of the details.

In addition to student surveys and teacher evaluations teacher performance measured as "value added" in students test scores. These three components were combined into an overall "teacher effectiveness" measure. This was all done using what look like very good experimental practices (random assignment of students to teachers, multiple schools across the US...).

Although not perfect the "teacher effectiveness" measure was quite predictive of future "value added". So perhaps we are closer to a solution. Of course this study was in elementary and middle schools and it may be more difficult in colleges (students walking out on surveys).

The project's methodology and results are well documented in a number of reports[1] including a detailed research report for those literate in statistics[2].

[1] http://www.metproject.org/reports.php

[2] http://www.metproject.org/downloads/MET_Validating_Using_Ran...

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#47

Post by jroesch »

the_watcher wrote: post #39
loser777 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm currently a student at a large (largest in the UC system) public research university, and I don't see any problem with excluding schools like UC Berkeley from the top 20. While we, like Berkeley, are a "research powerhouse," spend a little time as an undergraduate on campus and you will quickly realize how little the phrase "research powerhouse" really means to you. Professors are hired for research, not teaching…

I also went to UCLA and second all of this. My undergraduate experience didn't feel at all like I was at a research university.

I am an undergraduate at UCSB and I have had a much different experience. For both my friends and I getting involved with research has been relatively easy, it just requires making the effort of interacting with the faculty outside of class, and pursuing research actively instead of waiting for it to fall into your lap. I think people forget that the faculty are often excited by having a very motivated undergraduate approach them, and show interest in the work they are doing. One of my friends started in his lab, as a second quarter Freshman, and most of my friends, including myself started second year(Note: I think this is really dependent on the kind of research, things like Data Mining have less barrier to entry then something that requires much more background like Abstract Interpretation).

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#48

Post by [deleted] »

the_watcher wrote: post #39
loser777 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm currently a student at a large (largest in the UC system) public research university, and I don't see any problem with excluding schools like UC Berkeley from the top 20. While we, like Berkeley, are a "research powerhouse," spend a little time as an undergraduate on campus and you will quickly realize how little the phrase "research powerhouse" really means to you. Professors are hired for research, not teaching…

I also went to UCLA and second all of this. My undergraduate experience didn't feel at all like I was at a research university.

[deleted]

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#49

Post by carbocation »

I don't mean to be incredibly dense, but I'll risk looking that way here.

When you're at the elementary school level, I understand that there are easily quantified skills that we believe all citizens should possess. Standardized tests seem reasonable for standardized knowledge.

Once you're at the college level, what is the goal? What is the thing being maximized, the thing that can be measured and tested and presumably improved? Creativity? Problem solving? Social adroitness? Rote knowledge? Do I dare say that it may be different for different people?

The notion that colleges could be measured along just a few axes correlating with a few particular purposes confuses me in a way that the elementary school debate does not. What am I missing?

Re: Bill Gates Says There Is Something Perverse In College Ratings

#50

Post by Irregardless »

tokenadult wrote: post #38
Irregardless wrote: post #20

> “The report concluded that there were observable, repeatable and verifiable ways of measuring teacher effectiveness,” wrote Gates in the letter. Anonymous student surveys that asked such questions as “Does your teacher use class time well, get class organized quickly, help you when you are confused" – were proven to provide useful feedback as were reports from trained professionals observing teachers at work. Stude…

There was an earlier Hacker News submission about the Gates Foundation research on teacher effectiveness, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4559682 linking to an article that reported details of the methodology. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/why-kids... I looked up other research on the matter for the reply I posted in that thread. From the article submitted then, this is one way this process…

I can't find anything in those links about their survey being tested beyond 12th grade -- have they done that yet? It would be interesting to see if the same survey is effective in a college setting, especially one where classes can exceed 300 students.
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