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VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

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Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#41

Post by Hupo »

sillysaurus wrote: post #38
Hupo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If your test was to compare an intraframe between vp8 / baseline h264 / and Theora, you would have concluded Theora was the best by a wide margin. But it wasn't. I was comparing the visual quality of the whole video, and provided the full encoded clips for people to download and compare for that reason. I am willing to do further test encodes, but have no interest in doing something like encoding all 28 HD test clip…

I have no interest in doing something like encoding all 28 HD test clips, since as a purely visual comparison, it would be incredibly exhausting. Science is exhausting. If you're not working hard, then you're likely to miss the interesting (counter-intuitive) results. In fact, finding counter-intuitive results is the whole point of science. If the truth were intuitive, explanations wouldn't need testing.

One problem is that even if I found that VP8 performed very well at one or two particular clips (out of the 28 HD test clips available), I couldn't say for sure why that is the case. There seems to be no clear information on what clips benefit from what kind of features, and as I'm not an expert on video encoding technology, it'd be hard for me to deduce these things by myself. General conclusions could still be reached, obviously, but if I was going to such lengths it'd suck if I couldn't get more overall detailed results.

Anyway, I brought up the subject to some Xiph folks over at IRC. Maybe in the future the test clips will come equipped with more detailed information to help in testing. It'd also benefit smaller scale tests, since it'd allow one to identify possible biases more easily.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#43

Post by ksec »

"While I'd love a patent- and royalty-free video format to offer the highest quality compression you can find, I wouldn't hold my breath for one."

I wonder why couldn't they allow software usage ( Encoder and Decoder ) to be free. And only collect royalty on Hardware, and Industry Production use.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#44

Post by bobdvb »

nullc wrote: post #19

Testing with a single not very representative clip is a poor idea, See the comment on the github: https://gist.github.com/4645784#comment-756444

Agreed, a single video is not very representative and the results are still subjective. I would have liked these claims to be backed up by measurements like PSNR or VQM over multiple sources.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#45

Post by glomph »

Hupo wrote: post #21
nullc wrote: post #19

Testing with a single not very representative clip is a poor idea, See the comment on the github: https://gist.github.com/4645784#comment-756444

>not very representative clip I chose the clip based on what Dark_Shikari (x264 developer) had to say about it[1]: It shouldn't bias too heavily towards any one encoder like many of the other standard test clips will: a. It's relatively high motion, so it won't bias heavily against encoders without B-frames or qpel (as, say, mobcal does). b. It's not so high motion that it would cripple video formats that don't suppo…

That was in 2005!

Given that people do hundreds of test encodes when they actually use things like x264, I think that if you want to say anything general about these encoders you have to do more than one comparison.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#46

Post by protomyth »

gillianseed wrote: post #27
protomyth wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how cable looks compared to over the air HDTV, the coming of 4k, and satellite channels even h.264 isn't good enough. VP8 won't be and h.265 is the industries answer. I would expect trouble with the adoption of VP9 given Google's moves with Mortorola's patents.

Google releases VP8 and VP9 with a patent and royalty free licence, so a potential patent threat will hardly come from them.

Motorola released their GSM required patents under FRAND licensing. Google buys Motorola and tries to use those same patents in a fight with Apple and Motorola (dragging Qualcomm in with them). Google has to agree with the FTC not to do that.

Why would Apple or Microsoft believe Google's patent and royalty free license given their behavior with Motorola's prior promises?

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#47

Post by protomyth »

shmerl wrote: post #25
protomyth wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how cable looks compared to over the air HDTV, the coming of 4k, and satellite channels even h.264 isn't good enough. VP8 won't be and h.265 is the industries answer. I would expect trouble with the adoption of VP9 given Google's moves with Mortorola's patents.

> I would expect trouble with the adoption of VP9 given Google's moves with Mortorola's patents. How exactly? There is no indication that Google wants to make VP9 patent encumbered, since their whole idea behind VP8 was to enable high quality open video codec for the Web and beyond. If VP9 will be their natural next step, it will be open as well. If Daala comes soon enough too - it will be another option.

There are patents covering VP8 and I would bet VP9 also is covered.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#48

Post by shmerl »

protomyth wrote: post #47
shmerl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would expect trouble with the adoption of VP9 given Google's moves with Mortorola's patents. How exactly? There is no indication that Google wants to make VP9 patent encumbered, since their whole idea behind VP8 was to enable high quality open video codec for the Web and beyond. If VP9 will be their natural next step, it will be open as well. If Daala comes soon enough too - it will be another option.

There are patents covering VP8 and I would bet VP9 also is covered.

That's true, and Google explicitly granted their free usage, thus the codec is open in all senses of the word. I'd expect the same story with VP9. So what's your point?

http://www.webmproject.org/license/bitstream/

http://www.webmproject.org/license/software/

http://www.webmproject.org/license/additional/

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#49

Post by shmerl »

protomyth wrote: post #46
gillianseed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google releases VP8 and VP9 with a patent and royalty free licence, so a potential patent threat will hardly come from them.

Motorola released their GSM required patents under FRAND licensing. Google buys Motorola and tries to use those same patents in a fight with Apple and Motorola (dragging Qualcomm in with them). Google has to agree with the FTC not to do that. Why would Apple or Microsoft believe Google's patent and royalty free license given their behavior with Motorola's prior promises?

Apple and MS just don't like open codecs, period. That's the whole reason they sabotage them. It's not about belief - it's about the struggle between closed and open.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#50

Post by protomyth »

shmerl wrote: post #48
protomyth wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are patents covering VP8 and I would bet VP9 also is covered.

That's true, and Google explicitly granted their free usage, thus the codec is open in all senses of the word. I'd expect the same story with VP9. So what's your point? http://www.webmproject.org/license/bitstream/ http://www.webmproject.org/license/software/ http://www.webmproject.org/license/additional/

Google went back on what Motorola had already pledged when they bought them. What assurance does anyone have that Google won't do the same again?
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