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School district builds own software to handle student data, defies doubters

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Re: School district builds own software to handle student data, defies doubters

#41

Post by LarryMade »

jasonpbecker wrote: post #27

I'm pretty familiar with this problem space having worked in both a state department of education and a school district. I would not expect this to be a long term success. Virtually every district of reasonable size starts with a homegrown and maintained solution and ends up going with one of the big guys for lots of reasons. 1. Security/liability. You have to have pretty damn good systems here and definitely want to…

while it may be a point that they may have to rewrite it down the road, the advantage is they retain the logic so they don't have to start again from square one with a new vendor trying to get their system to work.

Also they could opensource it or sections to get help in hardening the code, create interoperability APIs, or anything they choose. Such an option is usually not a possibility with a private vendor.

Another issues is when you do have a significant change in law or policy getting the vendor to get those updates out in a timely/inexpensive manner may not be so easy.

Interoperability is overrated, what happens when HR decides they to get a new system? ...and that new system doesn't work with your current tracking system X but only with the much more expensive and over complex Y pro system?

I guess it comes down to is how important is it to have your hands on the data and process? I know some schools are really tiring of the "new system every five years or so" cycle that they go through (this can include, besides software, new hardware, training, reassigning staff responsibilities - all depending on the systems needs,) having control of costs and process might help them in the long run.

Re: School district builds own software to handle student data, defies doubters

#42

Post by sopooneo »

donw wrote: post #26
swedegeek wrote: post #13

For me, while it's absolutely no surprise, it's still quite depressing the clear lobbying that is/will occur to trample this project. As others have said, the cost seems quite realistic and I would put my money on the 8-person having a much better handle on the end-users needs over some big consulting-ware shop. But the big firms surely have great influence with those most able to appropriate the funds for whatever s…

It's a little amazing, when you think about it, that a lot of people think you need to spend $100 million to build software to manage grades and attendance. Especially as geeks in the startup world often build far more complicated software on budgets quite a bit smaller than $5 million.

Even if all it did was grade and attendance. It is not trivial to get that right. My own little pet project http://gradezilla.com took years of refinement before it could handle just those things. Tying in with other aspects of a schools system makes it many multiple more complicated.

Re: School district builds own software to handle student data, defies doubters

#43

Post by jmj42 »

japhyr wrote: post #12
jmj42 wrote: post #9

I've actually thought of proposing such a project for our school district. I'm not sure what we pay our current software, bu my thought was to develop a summer STEM program and give HS students the opportunity to participate is a real project with real consequences, etc. Many of the school people (administrators/teachers) were very unhappy with the previous system, so I expected it to be a reasonably easy sale. Unfor…

One of the big obstacles I see with this kind of model is the need to get security rock-solid. Any system that deals with student information is subject to federal privacy laws, and the consequences of a data leak would be pretty significant. Any thoughts on how to deal with this? I am wondering if os projects like the one you describe could partner with an experienced mentor, but I still wonder what kind of structur…

See below. The accounting problem is a far greater challenge that security. Interestingly school information systems are notoriously bad at security, so hitting par won't actually be that hard. Accurate accounting may be a huge challenge, though.

Either way, mentoring would be key, and no system developed vy students should be allowed into production at a scholl without a complete review. But that that's part of the process. Even in a private company/OSS project, code shouldn't be allowed into production without a review. I do have access to many people with the right skill set to be able to develop such a system on their own (my self included) in addition to the fact that I work for an information security research institution, so I have access to folks who know a whole lot more about trusted systems than I.

Of course, HS students will make mistakes, but the mentors will be there to review the work, and make suggestions, while keeping "bad code" from hitting a production system.

In the end, I'm not sure that I'm convinced that a student developed system is any different from one developed by some outside company.

Re: School district builds own software to handle student data, defies doubters

#45

Post by jarvuschris »

Technology and software in schools in one of the most corrupt, backwards, and destructive markets around. Schools must take charge of their own software and destiny with a robust open-source economy.

The Science Leadership Academy, a public high school in Philadelphia, runs on an open source SIS we've developed for under $100K and it has been in production for over 3 years. We are working now build an alliance between several like schools to share the maintenence and development costs of supporting a public release.

If this group is planning on spending $5 million, we're still dealing with enterprise salesman hiring amateur or out-of-date developers. Give me another $100K and I'll put money in hackers' pockets to build quality software and make sure no other schools _have_ to pay for the same thing twice. This is more of the same crap, there's a whole new generation of developers that don't have access to the school software market, and it's students that are losing out because of it. The developers that built all the sites and apps this community knows and loves wouldn't need anywhere near $5 million to build this SIS and it wouldn't look like it got left over from 1999

Re: School district builds own software to handle student data, defies doubters

#46

Post by bdunbar »

d4vlx wrote: post #5
bdunbar wrote: post #2

I hate to be Donald Downer but ... it's not done, yet. ' close to finishing the core version ' 'expects to begin testing its openStudent software in elementary schools this spring, with a full launch to follow in 2014. An advanced version for middle and high schools is slated to roll out in 2015.'

True but I have a lot more faith in a tightly integrated 8 person team than some off the shelf bloat-ware customization project.

As would I.

I don't assume they _are_ tightly integrated - all the article claims is 'eight people'.

These could be crack coders. Or they could be '1 guy who kinda knows VB and 7 people learning OJT'.

Re: School district builds own software to handle student data, defies doubters

#48

Post by saurik »

mgkimsal wrote: post #35
2arrs2ells wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While all three of your points are excellent concerns, I think you may be giving off-the-shelf systems a little too much credit. The SIS systems I know (US, K-12) do a mediocre job of updating quickly to new technologies/requirements (#2) and do a terrible job of interoperating with other systems through APIs (#3).

Doubleplus agree. Have been working with a state department on a student registration system for the past few years, and now everything's going to be placed under one of the 'big commercial' players in this space. No interop specs have been delivered/offered, and the integration team seems wholly unaware of the complexities of the requirements laid out by the state for the types of processes we have to comply with. A…

Would you be willing to touch on what the reasons were behind your department deciding to switch to a "big commercial" player?

Re: School district builds own software to handle student data, defies doubters

#49

Post by donw »

sopooneo wrote: post #42
donw wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little amazing, when you think about it, that a lot of people think you need to spend $100 million to build software to manage grades and attendance. Especially as geeks in the startup world often build far more complicated software on budgets quite a bit smaller than $5 million.

Even if all it did was grade and attendance. It is not trivial to get that right. My own little pet project http://gradezilla.com took years of refinement before it could handle just those things. Tying in with other aspects of a schools system makes it many multiple more complicated.

That's fair, but it's still not a $100 million investment.

Re: School district builds own software to handle student data, defies doubters

#50

Post by mgkimsal »

saurik wrote: post #48
mgkimsal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doubleplus agree. Have been working with a state department on a student registration system for the past few years, and now everything's going to be placed under one of the 'big commercial' players in this space. No interop specs have been delivered/offered, and the integration team seems wholly unaware of the complexities of the requirements laid out by the state for the types of processes we have to comply with. A…

Would you be willing to touch on what the reasons were behind your department deciding to switch to a "big commercial" player?

I've honestly no clue - from my perspective it was a statewide edict passed down last fall - there's probably more to it but I've not been filled in.
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