Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

sites.google.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 74 posts

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#41

Post by jebblue »

rprasad wrote: post #40
meaty wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just use java and benefit from mature libraries and frameworks, tooling and package management that isn't a piece of shit. Your insurance is the openjdk then rather than a thinly veiled promise not to sue from Microsoft.

Stop spreading FUD. That "thinly veiled promise not to sue" is backed by the full force of a legally binding promise recognized by the combined weight of the US and Euro legal systems. Microsoft is, by centuries of established law and court decisions, precluded from suing someone from using C# through Mono or any other API or framework. Moreover, using Java is now riskier than using C#, as Oracle has changed the lice…

>> Microsoft is, by centuries of established law and court decisions, precluded from suing someone from using C# through Mono or any other API or framework.

Then why did they feel compelled to "promise" not to sue:

http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/67537.html

If you're correct then all they needed to do is point to your statement that no court will allow them to sue.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#42

Post by jasonlotito »

pohl wrote: post #11
jasonlotito wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First line of the article: "C# had the highest growth in popularity this year (2.3 %), and Python the highest growth this decade (8%)". One of their key metrics to determine popularity is growth.

I find it hard to believe that some newer, smaller language communities did not have a higher growth rate.

"One of," not "only."

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#43

Post by jasonlotito »

maratd wrote: post #9
jasonlotito wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First line of the article: "C# had the highest growth in popularity this year (2.3 %), and Python the highest growth this decade (8%)". One of their key metrics to determine popularity is growth.

> One of their key metrics to determine popularity is growth. I would think one of the key metrics in determining popularity would be popularity ...

It is. I'd think that's fairly clear and obvious from the languages they were comparing.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#44

Post by gtani »

jQueryIsAwesome wrote: post #13
Drakim wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't a language that goes from 0 users to 1 user within this year easily win this sort of measurement?

Obligatory xkcd http://xkcd.com/1102/

oblig. Zed shaw

http://zedshaw.com/essays/programmer_stats.html

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#45

Post by jbester »

virmundi wrote: post #25
lucian1900 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're using C# or similar, the only reasonable choice is to always use Mono. Just use the cross platform and open source runtime, as you would for any other language, and pretend that .Net doesn't exist.

Serious question, I'll come back through my comment log to look at replies I promise: what tools exist for C# on Mono? I've used VS. I use Eclipse. I refuse to leave an IDE. I've never liked debugging from the command line. Any help here would be appreciated since I really like C#'s sense of balance and embracing newer ideas from the functional side of the house. Thanks.

Ximian has a plugin (http://mono-tools.com/) that lets you remote deploy/debug mono applications from Visual studio - it was free after a survey not sure if it still is or if it will be updated to vs 2012.

There are other tools sharpdevelop (for window) and monodevelop (all platforms) - but they are somewhat lacking. Sharp develop seems to slow down dramatically on large projects or WPF projects. Monodevelop seems to lag sharp develop in features and maturity.

GUI toolkits for dotnet are hit-and-miss. GTK# has the most traction and is cross platform - the documentation was lacking last time I looked. But, if you have a GTK background it may be a non-issue. Wx and QT bindings exist but I believe development has slowed down/stalled. Of course, there are OS X, android and iOS bindings that ximian sells. Unless you have a large existing c# code base it probably doesn't make sense to use them for greenfield development.

Server-side is where I think mono actually does shine a bit. Although you need to move out of the standard NetFX stack (i.e. WCF) to other open source libraries (i.e., ServiceStack). ASP.NET and MVC do run on mono - there are tutorials to deploy against apache or nginx.

As you can imagine there is some lag between mono and microsoft dotnet framework (see http://www.mono-project.com/Compatibility). The gist of it mono tries and succeeds keeping up with the framework but there are large holes with respect to .NET 3.0 (WWF, WCF, WPF). There was a silverlight plugin (moonlight) but much like silverlight new development has stopped.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#46

Post by meaty »

rprasad wrote: post #40
meaty wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just use java and benefit from mature libraries and frameworks, tooling and package management that isn't a piece of shit. Your insurance is the openjdk then rather than a thinly veiled promise not to sue from Microsoft.

Stop spreading FUD. That "thinly veiled promise not to sue" is backed by the full force of a legally binding promise recognized by the combined weight of the US and Euro legal systems. Microsoft is, by centuries of established law and court decisions, precluded from suing someone from using C# through Mono or any other API or framework. Moreover, using Java is now riskier than using C#, as Oracle has changed the lice…

No its not actually. The scope of the legal agreement is undefined and may or may not encompass bits of the framework which mono implements or may implement in the future. So don't count on it, which is what our rather expensive lawyer told us.

OpenJDK is GPL.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#47

Post by jbester »

jbester wrote: post #45
virmundi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question, I'll come back through my comment log to look at replies I promise: what tools exist for C# on Mono? I've used VS. I use Eclipse. I refuse to leave an IDE. I've never liked debugging from the command line. Any help here would be appreciated since I really like C#'s sense of balance and embracing newer ideas from the functional side of the house. Thanks.

Ximian has a plugin ( http://mono-tools.com/ ) that lets you remote deploy/debug mono applications from Visual studio - it was free after a survey not sure if it still is or if it will be updated to vs 2012. There are other tools sharpdevelop (for window) and monodevelop (all platforms) - but they are somewhat lacking. Sharp develop seems to slow down dramatically on large projects or WPF projects. Monodevelop seems…

I should add: the value proposition for mono is a bit bizarre.

On the server, typically mono is chosen because mono on linux is much cheaper than azure, or windows hosting (AWS, etc) therefore you trading slightly more development and setup effort for cheaper run-time costs.

For the phone/tablet market, you are doing the opposite trading money (monotouch licenses) to save development time and learning a new platform.

On the desktop, I think the value proposition is much less well defined. It depends alot of the mix of clients you are supporting.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#48

Post by adandy »

meaty wrote: post #46
rprasad wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop spreading FUD. That "thinly veiled promise not to sue" is backed by the full force of a legally binding promise recognized by the combined weight of the US and Euro legal systems. Microsoft is, by centuries of established law and court decisions, precluded from suing someone from using C# through Mono or any other API or framework. Moreover, using Java is now riskier than using C#, as Oracle has changed the lice…

No its not actually. The scope of the legal agreement is undefined and may or may not encompass bits of the framework which mono implements or may implement in the future. So don't count on it, which is what our rather expensive lawyer told us. OpenJDK is GPL.

Some portions of the framework are not covered by the promise but Miguel mentioned something about Xamarin still having some kind of protection the project had when it was at Novell. Does anybody have any information that can prove/disprove this?

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#49

Post by skrebbel »

virmundi wrote: post #25
lucian1900 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're using C# or similar, the only reasonable choice is to always use Mono. Just use the cross platform and open source runtime, as you would for any other language, and pretend that .Net doesn't exist.

Serious question, I'll come back through my comment log to look at replies I promise: what tools exist for C# on Mono? I've used VS. I use Eclipse. I refuse to leave an IDE. I've never liked debugging from the command line. Any help here would be appreciated since I really like C#'s sense of balance and embracing newer ideas from the functional side of the house. Thanks.

There's no need to ditch Visual Studio at all. For instance, if you use VS with TestDriven.Net, you can run your tests on mono straight from VS. I believe there's also a way to debug mono from VS, but can't recall how and don't have VS available right here.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#50

Post by pcl »

virmundi wrote: post #25
lucian1900 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're using C# or similar, the only reasonable choice is to always use Mono. Just use the cross platform and open source runtime, as you would for any other language, and pretend that .Net doesn't exist.

Serious question, I'll come back through my comment log to look at replies I promise: what tools exist for C# on Mono? I've used VS. I use Eclipse. I refuse to leave an IDE. I've never liked debugging from the command line. Any help here would be appreciated since I really like C#'s sense of balance and embracing newer ideas from the functional side of the house. Thanks.

Visual Studio + ReSharper is a dream come true. As someone who learns by doing rather than studying, ReSharper's refactorings and inline code reformatting suggestions was an invaluable source of idiomatic C# knowledge (second only to great code reviews from one of my C#-clueful coworkers). And Visual Studio's debugger lets you move the program counter backwards, which is just awesome for interactive REPL-esque development.

(No, I'm not a JetBrains employee -- just an avid fan of every product of theirs that I've used.)

Post reply on HN