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Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

technologyreview.com

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Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#41

Post by ufo »

Xylakant wrote: post #14
jcampbell1 wrote: post #8

I have never understood residential solar. Seems like a gimmick. Why would I want these panels on my roof? It seems like hosting a server in your basement. It is appealing in theory, but silly in practice. If I just hosted my panels at a site where other people hosted their solar panels, you could probably install it for less than $1.00 per watt.

You can use otherwise unused space - that's the theory. Now if you install solar heating panels on your roof you can actually heat your house and warm your water with that, even in winter. They're fairly efficient. Nobody does that in germany though, since it's more economical to sell the power generated by solar panels.

Heating panels are also simpler and cheaper then the eletricity generating ones.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#42

Post by walshemj »

stfu wrote: post #12
walshemj wrote: post #6

well its the tax breaks of course silly. In the UK the grants for solar used to guarantee around a 8% return - this is a tax break for the Upper middle classes who can spend $20k or so. This is a result of the silly panic over fukishima in Germany and the greens being brought off to keep Adrea Merkal in power.

If you want to spur private investments it seems to me smarter to target the middle class than those closer to the welfare benefit system. Home owners are a lot more willing to put money into their property today, i.e. invest money today for the vage promise of the government paying it back over the next 20 years. This seems a much more value creation oriented idea than just to stimulate short term consumption.

The voters in Germany might want to to increase funding for Care homes for the elderly or funding for start ups not providing a subsidy to well-of middle class.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#44

Post by jakeonthemove »

lispm wrote: post #16
quanticle wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, on the flip side, Germany has massive tax subsidies for solar power. It's a lot easier to convince someone to get solar panels installed on their roof if you can show them a tax benefit for doing so. On a broader note, I don't get why we think it's a good thing for Germany to have this much solar energy. Unlike, say, Spain, the German climate is not especially well suited to solar power. It's too far north, as a…

> underinvestment in wind estimated electricity production for Germany in 2012: * Wind: 45 Billion kwh * Solar: 28,5 Billion kWh

Well, exactly - if there was more incentive for wind power, that number would be much higher.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#45

Post by tsotha »

DannyBee wrote: post #28
[deleted] wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I have a solar city PPA. I suspect what you see on their website is just to grab customers. They don't try to snow anyone, at least IME. They will give you sheets that show exactly what they estimate and are willing to guarantee a year, and show exactly how all the numbers are derived. 5 of my friends (all engineers, actually) are doing PPA's as well. A few things: 1. Sadly, a lot of folks try to compare generation c…

What is the minimum lease period?

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#46

Post by SethMurphy »

jakeonthemove wrote: post #44
lispm wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> underinvestment in wind estimated electricity production for Germany in 2012: * Wind: 45 Billion kwh * Solar: 28,5 Billion kWh

Well, exactly - if there was more incentive for wind power, that number would be much higher.

Germany has an incredible amount of wind power, almost to the point of saturation. They are in the process of upgrading old ones to be more efficient instead of creating more. Here are some numbers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#47

Post by brudgers »

redwood wrote: post #32

Red tape is a big part of the cost in the US and a problem that needs to be solved. Every locality and state has its own requirements, inspections, licenses etc. A solar industry insider told me one of the worst solar markets in California is Palo Alto. Wealthy, green, suburban, techy: how can this be? The city runs its own utilities and makes it hard to install (apparently). Regulations need to be streamlined.

Virtually every jurisdiction in the United States has adopted the National Electrical Code [NFPA 70]. Nearly all construction is governed by the International Building Code or a derivative state code (e.g. the CBC).

What varies are enforcement standards and local conditions. Some local conditions such as earthquakes and hurricanes are environmental. Others such as zoning and other land development regulations are political (and some of the most extreme regulations are private in the form of covenants upon title to the land).

There are sound reasons for regulation and enforcement (and unsound ones as well). Among them are life safety issues. Unlike grid power, solar panels have no disconnect. They remain live while exposed to sunlight. This creates a hazard during fires and similar emergencies. It creates a new class of hazard during electrical repairs and unrelated tasks such as re-roofing or cleaning gutters.

Wealthy and suburban tends to correlate with all construction projects being difficult to permit because such jurisdictions have more vocal and resourceful citizens with a concern for maintaining property values.

If one goes to the sticks, there are still places in the US which don't require a building permit.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#48

Post by yxhuvud »

chestnut-tree wrote: post #21
jcampbell1 wrote: post #8

I have never understood residential solar. Seems like a gimmick. Why would I want these panels on my roof? It seems like hosting a server in your basement. It is appealing in theory, but silly in practice. If I just hosted my panels at a site where other people hosted their solar panels, you could probably install it for less than $1.00 per watt.

In the UK, energy used in homes accounts for more than a quarter of all national energy use and carbon dioxide emissions. Space heating consumes the largest amount of energy for most households. An alternative to solar panels is simply better insulation for housing. This can dramatically cut energy consumption. BTW, Germany has been a pioneer in this regard too as it developed the PassivHaus standard for energy effic…

Well, proper insulation of houses has been standard for many decades in properly developed countries. UK is kinda infamous over here for not knowing how to insulate.

Examplified in this joke: 'Why do Englishmen put their pipes on the outside of the house? - Because it is simpler to exchange them when they freeze.'

/Swede

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#49

Post by dalke »

wlesieutre wrote: post #38
ndonnellan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which insolation maps? I find this hard to believe. Compared to SW USA (or even the east coast), Germany's insolation is pretty bad. The subsidies are all the only thing bringing solar to Germany (or even Spain for that matter) See: http://maps.nrel.gov/SWERA

I don't know the source of their data, but this map from BP Solar puts Germany on par with most of Alaska (and worse than anywhere else in the US) http://www.amerescosolar.com/sites/default/files/insolation_...

I looked at that map. (It's rather pretty, too!) It shows N. Germany between 0.5 and 1.0, and S. Germany between 1.5 and 2.0. The g'parent poster commented about southern Germany, so that corresponds to Michigan, New York, or Washington.

Going off on a tangent, I lived in New Mexico (5.5 on that table). A friend bought German solar panels for his house. He then had to get an upgraded transformer, because it put out too much power for the stock German one to handle.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#50

Post by jcampbell1 »

wlesieutre wrote: post #39
jcampbell1 wrote: post #8

I have never understood residential solar. Seems like a gimmick. Why would I want these panels on my roof? It seems like hosting a server in your basement. It is appealing in theory, but silly in practice. If I just hosted my panels at a site where other people hosted their solar panels, you could probably install it for less than $1.00 per watt.

This is something that's allowed for in some solar regulations, using a system called Virtual Net Metering. It works the same way as normal net metering (where power sent back into the grid runs your meter backward), except that the power output can be allocated over multiple people's electric bills. IIRC, there are community solar projects that do exactly what you describe. http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/PUC/energy/DistGen/…

Thanks for sharing the link. Virtual Net Metering looks interesting. That particular regulation sounds like it is designed for a multi-tenant use case, and the panels must still be on site. It would be nice if Virtual Net Metering was available even if my panels were co-located at some muni site.
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