Earlier quoted context omitted.
You kind of are claiming they're minimal, though. Because if they're not, your statement that "if you found any patterns in there, you could exploit the regularity..." implies nothing. Yeah, the patterns are there, and people are exploiting them. Your socioeconomic argument just doesn't hold either. People don't delay releasing models until they've minimized it to the theoretical limit. They ship it when it's good en…
If somebody finds patterns in them, that means they can be improved by reducing the patterns. Patterns and symmetry are forms of redundancy. The less memory the weights take to meet a level of competency, the more random, and therefore patternless and inscrutable they will be.
Harnessing the Universal Geometry of Embeddings
41–50 of 50 posts
Re: Harnessing the Universal Geometry of Embeddings
#42Re: Harnessing the Universal Geometry of Embeddings
#43Re: Harnessing the Universal Geometry of Embeddings
#44Re: Harnessing the Universal Geometry of Embeddings
#45I'm not as heavy on the maths stuff involved in this as other people commenting appear to be. But the idea makes sense, of course there is still recoverable data in embeddings, that's the point. Though as I constantly find the more you try to squeeze into an n bit vector the more watered down everything gets. I suppose a latent space could be encrypted/mapped in some way to resolve that, but how many people are expos…
The point of the paper isn't that embeddings contain information, it's that even if you don't know what model generated a set of embeddings you can still recover information from the geometry of the point cloud itself. The fact that this is possible also adds some pretty strong restriction to the set of possible maps you could use to remove that information. No linear map will work since all embedding spaces are ~an…
But I think my point still stands, isn't the geometry information THE information I referred to in the first place? Obviously the vector size gives you the granularity but it's kind of unavoidable to positionally encode information in a latent space...that's literally what they're for?
But yes, it is very cool to know that regardless of exact implementation finding x,y,z representations of some dataset with various relationships (like language) creates similar geometry/clues across all the implementations.
Re: Harnessing the Universal Geometry of Embeddings
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's not science until it passes peer review Peer reviewers don't generally reproduce the work in the publications they are asked to review, at least not during the review process itself. Neither do journal editors. If you want a real vanity press, check vixra and its origin story. ArXiv does have moderators and endorsers in each area, although they are usually light-touch, weeding out literally unreadable submissi…
Thanks for this reply, your points are well taken and it really got me to think about this stuff. I suppose you could view arxiv as being a way to let more people do a peer review on the papers, i.e. as one component of a more open and transparent peer review process. As such, it is certainly a welcome alternative to what the snootier journal reviews do, which is to put off reading your paper for a year, and then spe…
This is how the academic dialogue works, and it dates back to early durable records in the ancient world -- about as far before Plato as Plato's Academy is before today's universities. Innovations like academic journals come from "merely" four centuries ago, and pre-publication evaluation by peers about three hundred years ago. Anonymized pre-publication review is more recent still, and publishing schedules (as well as the needs of the submitter to have the submitted work dealt with in good time) don't admit a dialogue over some subtle point a referee takes some issue with. Moreover, such a pre-publication dialogue is generally non-public, and often also filtered through an editor. It can get messy [1].
As I'm sure you've discovered in your own post-secondary education, academia is very conservative (in the sense of "retaining what mostly works, even in the face of mounting scaling problems", foremost among those being the ever-increasing volume of publishable works generated by researchers).
Your own idea is quite conservative, and has been tried from time to time. Direct compensation by journals of referees for their time has been the subject of rigorous human experimentation: https://10.1097/CCM.0000000000006637 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.03.18.644032v1 as recent examples, with mixed results.
Direct compensation of referees by journals has a number of pitfalls ranging from the fiddly details of how to deal with income tax liability pay (and credits towards future publication fees, etc) incurs to whether it compromises the objectivity of pre-publication evaluation (which is frankly already not very good in highly specialized areas).
Payment of reviewers by paper submitters is imho an even worse idea -- how do you preserve the anonymity of referees (especially with respect to the submitters)? Do submitters or reviewers have exposure to their (probably different) tax authorities for these transactions? (I can think of at least four national tax agencies that would view the received pay as taxable income, and also potentially subject to value-added tax on professional services. One already sees this problem with conference honoraria.)
Another -- one that already exists in the real world -- might be for institutions and grant-funders to build in support for peer review of others' work by project members. To the extent that detailed pre-publication review benefits academia, and societies that fund academia, as a whole, maybe referees should be rewarded (or even obliged) to do paid reviewing duty. One might compare the requirement to do pro bono work imposed on many practising lawyers by their regulating authorities (especially interesting are jurisdictions in which a party losing a court contest to a party represented pro bono usually must pay into a fund that supports the overall scheme).
Personally I think it would be more useful to everyone to have a solid reply paper published in due course than a blocked initial publication. My ideal is that referees aim to help submitters not accidentally professionally embarrass themselves.
Then on your reproduction idée fixe, supporting the generation of papers which confirm reproduction is something that societies could certainly work on. Many incentives to write and submit papers calling out flaws in others' work already exist, and of course could be expanded. I don't think any of that should be done with masking of the participants. Additionally, reproduction of results is often less interesting than (sometimes much) later testing of published results in significantly different ways.
(Indeed, foundational papers from more than ninety years ago are often re-proven by modern-day experiments, both as a side effect of (or opportunity arising from) pursuing the primary research goal, and as a way of testing e.g. new metrology technology, new computational tools, mathematical advances, and so on. Also, some of those foundational papers simply could not be tested with great accuracy with tools existing at the time of publication. Their publication, however, tended to drive the development of such tools, and in modern days such foundational papers are found to be good only within certain limits that could not have been explored closer to the time of publication.)
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[1] https://theconversation.com/hate-the-peer-review-process-ein... (2014)
Re: Harnessing the Universal Geometry of Embeddings
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's not science until it passes peer review Peer reviewers don't generally reproduce the work in the publications they are asked to review, at least not during the review process itself. Neither do journal editors. If you want a real vanity press, check vixra and its origin story. ArXiv does have moderators and endorsers in each area, although they are usually light-touch, weeding out literally unreadable submissi…
Thanks for this reply, your points are well taken and it really got me to think about this stuff. I suppose you could view arxiv as being a way to let more people do a peer review on the papers, i.e. as one component of a more open and transparent peer review process. As such, it is certainly a welcome alternative to what the snootier journal reviews do, which is to put off reading your paper for a year, and then spe…
> it really got me to think about this stuff.
Thank you, that is very generous of you to say.
Re: Harnessing the Universal Geometry of Embeddings
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for this reply, your points are well taken and it really got me to think about this stuff. I suppose you could view arxiv as being a way to let more people do a peer review on the papers, i.e. as one component of a more open and transparent peer review process. As such, it is certainly a welcome alternative to what the snootier journal reviews do, which is to put off reading your paper for a year, and then spe…
Also > it really got me to think about this stuff. Thank you, that is very generous of you to say.
W.R.T. the grand historical tradition, etc, note that the great majority of people who practiced that were, like Plato, independently wealthy and otherwise idle. Those who didn't need any money.
That's why we give Judges, teachers, and Professors tenure, a guaranteed job for life. People are more likely to be fair judges of other people's performance when they don't need the money.
So I guess if you want a non-conservative fix, it would be universal guaranteed minimum income. Something we already have, BTW, but you have to be over 62 to get it.
We've tried to open it up to more than just the 1%, but we didn't really go all the way. It is really unreasonable to expect somebody who isn't independently wealthy to do free work. It is a lot of work to properly review a paper, and reproducing the results is something you simply can't do at all if you are supposed to already be working 70 hours a week generating your own research.
Of course a researcher paying reviewers would be a disastrous idea. But if the grant-awarding body would hire 3rd parties to validate that their money was actually well spent, I think it would be a win/win.
Thanks for the references on where paying reviewers has already been tried. I'd like to see others reproduce their success :-)
Re: Harnessing the Universal Geometry of Embeddings
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
Calling the arxiv a vanity press shows you aren't a researcher. In math and physics all the best stuff is on the arxiv and the general level is well above the level of most journals. Journals mainly serve as accreditation and many are basically mediocre - the review process resta more value than it adds overall.
What is your definition of a vanity press? Mine is that it will publish anything from anybody. Sure, there's lots of good stuff on there. But there's lots which is not good. Publishing there is not doing science. Science requires peer review. Its a wonderful resource, but when overworked journalists (or worse, AI) just picks up a paper from there and writes a breathless article on how cool this new idea is, it is mis…
Re: Harnessing the Universal Geometry of Embeddings
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is your definition of a vanity press? Mine is that it will publish anything from anybody. Sure, there's lots of good stuff on there. But there's lots which is not good. Publishing there is not doing science. Science requires peer review. Its a wonderful resource, but when overworked journalists (or worse, AI) just picks up a paper from there and writes a breathless article on how cool this new idea is, it is mis…
In math and theoretical physics the arxiv is the default place to publish and where one goes to find the best and most current work. Papers take a long time to review (years) particularly hard and good papers and publication in journals mainly serves the needs of bean counting dean's and quality control morons in the administration. Actual scientific communication is via the arxiv. Self selection mitigates most ills…