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The Tariff Cost: analysis of the costs to Americans from new tariffs on Canada

thetariffcost.com

41–50 of 252 posts

Re: The Tariff Cost: analysis of the costs to Americans from new tariffs on Canada

#41
post #6

> And Canada is taxing you back This seems illogical. You can't simultaneously claim that the US is paying higher prices for Canadian goods because of US-imposed tariffs and then turn around and say only that Americans are paying a tax on buying Canadian goods on Canadian-imposed tariffs. Both countries are either paying higher prices or paying higher taxes. Canada's tariffs must also be viewed as America is taxing C…

It's really not that complicated imo...

So what do you do when your government is effectively bankrupt? You’ve accumulated more debt than you can realistically repay without imposing enormous economic pain, but you still need to keep the country functioning. One historical answer is an inflationary cycle combined with a trade war.

You impose tariffs on foreign goods, which creates government revenue while also making imported goods more expensive. You then blame the resulting price increases on foreign competitors and trading partners. But the tariffs themselves are inflationary because businesses ultimately pass much of those higher costs on to consumers.

As prices rise, nominal tax revenues also rise because governments are collecting taxes on larger dollar amounts. Meanwhile, governments have an incentive to continue borrowing, spending, and potentially expanding the money supply to deal with their fiscal problems. More money chasing higher-priced goods creates further inflation.

The critical part is what inflation does to existing debt. If you owe $1 trillion in debt today, but inflation dramatically reduces the purchasing power of the dollar over time, that $1 trillion becomes much easier to repay in real terms. The nominal debt remains the same, but its real economic burden shrinks.

So you can end up with a feedback loop: tariffs increase prices, higher prices increase nominal tax receipts, fiscal pressure encourages more borrowing and monetary expansion, monetary expansion fuels more inflation, and inflation gradually erodes the real value of the government's existing debt.

In other words, rather than explicitly defaulting on the debt, you can effectively "inflate it away." The creditors get paid back in dollars, but those dollars are worth substantially less than the dollars they originally lent.

The danger is that this isn't free money. The cost is ultimately transferred to consumers, savers, wage earners, and holders of government debt through reduced purchasing power. And once inflation expectations become entrenched, controlling the cycle can become extremely difficult without causing a recession or other severe economic disruption.

Re: The Tariff Cost: analysis of the costs to Americans from new tariffs on Canada

#42
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea is that tariffs cut both ways. They increase prices for foreign goods as well as reduce demand for imports causing job losses in the exporting country. The original tariffs increase prices and the retaliatory tariffs reduce demand for American products causing job loss.

Yes but since Canada is also initiating new tariffs (they've had existing ones for specific products and industries already) so anything said here applies to Canada as well. For example Canadian tariffs increase prices and their retaliatory tariffs also reduce demand for Canadian products leading to job losses.

They are willing to bear some pain in order to hit back at the US administration. And they're pretty united - Doug Ford for instance is not on the same team as Mark Carney - but has been very vocal about striking back.

It's really a singular achievement to piss off such a good neighbor so badly.

Re: The Tariff Cost: analysis of the costs to Americans from new tariffs on Canada

#43

Am I the only one who finds this site undecipherable? Take this snippet for example: American exporters $16.0B of what American exporters sell to Canada sits in headings Canada taxes today, 10.5% of the total. From 8 September it is $26.5B. See whose jobs What does "sits in headings Canada taxes" mean? Whatever this means, how does it jump to $26.5B from $16.0B on a single date? Don't things have to enter for tariffs…

It is AI slop, which has the veneer of sense without the substance. https://cymerys.com/w/im-becoming-ai-blind

Re: The Tariff Cost: analysis of the costs to Americans from new tariffs on Canada

#44
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's set the framing correctly because I think we're starting off on the wrong foot. The US is not in a desperate need of any product from Canada. Nice to have and super important? Yea. Desperate? No. Not by any stretch of the imagination. > There have been $0 in tariffs on US dairy. The tariffs only come into play when the US imports pass a certain volume So there are tariffs on US dairy... Maybe the US can just sa…

> The US is not in a desperate need of any product from Canada. Nice to have and super important? Yea. Desperate? No. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The US oil stockpile is rapidly declining, it is desperately buying up bonds to try to prop up the market ($40T debt, deficit spiralling, and now your orange goblin is talking about using the military to prop up the bond market...which good God), and now Vance is…

> It isn't semantics when $0 in tariffs were applied.

> There have been $0 in tariffs on US dairy. The tariffs only come into play when the US imports pass a certain volume

So how do tariffs come in to play if there are no tariffs applied?

> You clearly are.

> you know, the trade deal that your hero

You're welcome to read my entire comment history. You will find I routinely have said Donald Trump belongs in jail. You can choose to believe I'm a Trump supporter for whatever reason, if you'd like, but I can only tell you that I'm not except in circumstances where his actions create good things for the United States or if his policies (or anyone's) align with mine. I make the decision and then others align or don't. I'm better characterized as anti-populist and anti-populist movements including MAGA, DSA, and others where applicable, and then also anti bad arguments.

Re: The Tariff Cost: analysis of the costs to Americans from new tariffs on Canada

#45
post #6

> And Canada is taxing you back This seems illogical. You can't simultaneously claim that the US is paying higher prices for Canadian goods because of US-imposed tariffs and then turn around and say only that Americans are paying a tax on buying Canadian goods on Canadian-imposed tariffs. Both countries are either paying higher prices or paying higher taxes. Canada's tariffs must also be viewed as America is taxing C…

If you're going to talk about canadian dairy tariffs, please note that (a) this was originally negotiated by trump the last time he was in office, and (b) the tariff only applies when the total imports exceed a limit, which iirc has never actually been exceeded.

Re: The Tariff Cost: analysis of the costs to Americans from new tariffs on Canada

#46
I'm afraid to comment because HN shadow bans when discussing international relations.

The wild part is that I'm quite academic, Waltz, Mearsheimer, Morgenthau are on my wall.

Okay let's get flagged for saying the uncomfortable silent part(chatGPT joke)...

Canada suffers more than the United States.

Re: The Tariff Cost: analysis of the costs to Americans from new tariffs on Canada

#47
post #6

> And Canada is taxing you back This seems illogical. You can't simultaneously claim that the US is paying higher prices for Canadian goods because of US-imposed tariffs and then turn around and say only that Americans are paying a tax on buying Canadian goods on Canadian-imposed tariffs. Both countries are either paying higher prices or paying higher taxes. Canada's tariffs must also be viewed as America is taxing C…

I think you are reading way too much into that "you" in that sentence. I read it simply as a list and total of all the retaliatory tariffs that Canada is imposing, and the site emphasizes that this is obviously bad for American jobs, not that American consumers pay the tariffs that Canada is imposing. This whole trade war with Canada has to be one of the dumbest fucking things I have ever witnessed, and that's saying…

For more movies about the ridiculousness of having a fight with Canada, of all places, see Canadian Bacon: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109370/

Summary quote from IMDB: "The U.S. President, low in the opinion polls, gets talked into raising his popularity by trying to start a cold war against Canada."

Re: The Tariff Cost: analysis of the costs to Americans from new tariffs on Canada

#48
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US is not in a desperate need of any product from Canada. Nice to have and super important? Yea. Desperate? No. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The US oil stockpile is rapidly declining, it is desperately buying up bonds to try to prop up the market ($40T debt, deficit spiralling, and now your orange goblin is talking about using the military to prop up the bond market...which good God), and now Vance is…

> It isn't semantics when $0 in tariffs were applied. > There have been $0 in tariffs on US dairy. The tariffs only come into play when the US imports pass a certain volume So how do tariffs come in to play if there are no tariffs applied? > You clearly are. > you know, the trade deal that your hero You're welcome to read my entire comment history. You will find I routinely have said Donald Trump belongs in jail. You…

> So how do tariffs come in to play if there are no tariffs applied?

What is the duty you pay on duty free goods?

Is this a serious question?

Canada negotiated in a quota of dairy products the US could export to Canada tariff free. If the US exceeds this quota, there are tariffs. If it doesn't, there are none. It has never even come close to hitting the quota, much less exceeding it, and the total tariffs ever paid on this has been $0.

Again, this is all a part of a massively complex trade agreements where every agreement had a give and take.

Exactly the same system applies in reverse. Canadian dairy isn't putting US farmers out of business, because there are basically zero exports to the US of dairy products.

The fact that Trump constantly returns to dairy betrays just how fundamentally broken the US is now.

As an aside, saw Lutnick -- that disgusting greaseball Epstein island visitor, as the entire admin are scumbags and pedophiles -- on the news the other day declaring that the only reason there are auto plants in Canada is to evade unions. Canada has 3x the union rate than the US, better worker protections, better vacation and holiday and sick and health and environmental protections, and so on. Why is he willing to just LIE so egregiously? Because America has become the stupidest fucking country on the planet, and your Pedo Leaders can just do this endlessly and you'll eat it up and repeat the stupid nonsense verbatim. What an embarrassment.

Re: The Tariff Cost: analysis of the costs to Americans from new tariffs on Canada

#49
Imagine you want to build a factory in the US. You pay tariffs on the factory equipment you need - much of it is made overseas. You pay tariffs on your input goods. And then when you try to export your customers get hit with a retaliatory tariff. I don't agree with tariffs but even if we accept some level of protectionism you can't tariff everything the way this administration wants. You have to pick what you actually want to prioritize and choose your battles.

Re: The Tariff Cost: analysis of the costs to Americans from new tariffs on Canada

#50
post #6

> And Canada is taxing you back This seems illogical. You can't simultaneously claim that the US is paying higher prices for Canadian goods because of US-imposed tariffs and then turn around and say only that Americans are paying a tax on buying Canadian goods on Canadian-imposed tariffs. Both countries are either paying higher prices or paying higher taxes. Canada's tariffs must also be viewed as America is taxing C…

First, I agree with your complaint about that wording.

Aside from that, the "obvious" dairy tariffs you speak of are almost entirely theoretical. Those are anti-dumping tariffs that kick-in only when a certain threshold has been met. It never has.

That's not to say there aren't trade barriers. The US side argues that there are market barriers that make reaching those quotas impossible [0]. It's a fair point and worth discussing. But let's call it what it is: it's a dispute about opening up a potential new market. Nobody has been over-charged and no American farmers have been "ripped off" (quoting DJT).

If the end result is the same, do the details matter? Absolutely. Being overcharged or ripped off is something that gets people heated, (which is exactly why Trump uses that inflammatory language). Being denied market access because of administrative hurdles to a small-ish niche in a relatively small market like Canada? Not so much.

Please don't repeat the falsehood that dairy tariffs are an "obvious" example of where Canada has imposed fees on American companies. The truth is more nuanced.

[0] https://www.farmprogress.com/farm-policy/the-real-story-behi...

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