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Queryable Executables

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Re: Queryable Executables

#41

Post by MomsAVoxell »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #8

> We can collapse not only a complete distribution but all the state for every application into a single file, alleviating the need for /var/ or /tmp/ or /home/ or any other filesystem. The program can store its own state in the same file it is running from, and it can do so transactionally. On the one hand: I don't think I want that. Including static content with the binary makes sense, certainly. However, storing w…

I think its really cute that SQlite is used as the container format - but my mind wanders to other things used in the same way.

One of my favourite ways to develop apps is to use Lua - for everything. Construct an efficient core application framework, then embed the Lua VM in it, and then do all program logic and control flow in Lua, then put the Lua bytecode in the binary with luastatic, and off we go.

So this technique could be used to tack on state as Lua bytecode, meaning I could then accomplish something I’ve wanted for my Lua apps for decades - migration. I could have the app save its state safely, then simply transfer the binary itself to another machine, and recover gracefully.

Of course this could be used with any tools - not just Lua - but the idea of having the entire runtime binary included in the Lua state table is just so delicious I wanna try it ..

Re: Queryable Executables

#42

Post by MomsAVoxell »

kleiba2 wrote: post #16
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #8

> We can collapse not only a complete distribution but all the state for every application into a single file, alleviating the need for /var/ or /tmp/ or /home/ or any other filesystem. The program can store its own state in the same file it is running from, and it can do so transactionally. On the one hand: I don't think I want that. Including static content with the binary makes sense, certainly. However, storing w…

What if I'm running multiple instances of the same binary?

$ cp /original/binary.app /new/binary.app && /new/binary.app

Makes sense to me. Also for production, I would have the app change its name by adding a datetime to the filename, indicating when it was last synchronized.

This is a very appealing idea, I too hope it gets 1000% more attention and adoption.

Re: Queryable Executables

#43

Post by MomsAVoxell »

mirashii wrote: post #6
robviren wrote: post #4

Between this and actually portable executable I'm not convinced someone hasn't made a PNG thats a spreadsheet, or an audio file the somehow renders DOOM across the room. HN amazes me with the absolutely cursed ideas of implementing a minecraft in pure css (or showing whatever other nightmares one can do with CSS). It shows the most incredible creativity in what one can do with the freedom of arranging bits however on…

PoC || GTFO has an issue that is a PDF that is also a valid NES rom which will render the md5sum of the PDF itself, and other crazy tricks of that type over the years. https://dl.packetstormsecurity.net/mag/pocgtfo/pocorgtfo14.p...

I consider PoC || GTFO the forefront of OS research, personally .. so many usability advances in that scene.

Re: Queryable Executables

#45

Post by kqr »

MomsAVoxell wrote: post #41
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #8

> We can collapse not only a complete distribution but all the state for every application into a single file, alleviating the need for /var/ or /tmp/ or /home/ or any other filesystem. The program can store its own state in the same file it is running from, and it can do so transactionally. On the one hand: I don't think I want that. Including static content with the binary makes sense, certainly. However, storing w…

I think its really cute that SQlite is used as the container format - but my mind wanders to other things used in the same way. One of my favourite ways to develop apps is to use Lua - for everything. Construct an efficient core application framework, then embed the Lua VM in it, and then do all program logic and control flow in Lua, then put the Lua bytecode in the binary with luastatic, and off we go. So this techn…

> One of my favourite ways to develop apps is to use Lua - for everything. Construct an efficient core application framework, then embed the Lua VM in it, and then do all program logic and control flow in Lua, then put the Lua bytecode in the binary with luastatic, and off we go.

Okay, you have to expand on this. Do you have a blog post or anything that goes into more detail?

Re: Queryable Executables

#46

Post by kqr »

JaumeGreen wrote: post #19

So like a Lisp, APL, or Smalltalk program image, but with SQL as the driving force. Everything old is new again. And I don't mean it in a disparaging way. There's lots of "old" ideas that are simply great ideas that did not win on their own time but might come back with force in the future.

Right! As I was reading I was thinking of ways to evolve this, and one idea kept coming back: What if we don't store compiled code in the SQLite database, but something primitive like s-expressions representing code? Then we could update definitions live as regular INSERTs. Then I realised I'd reinvented Lisp.

Re: Queryable Executables

#47

Post by punnerud »

I build a SQLite clone in Rust with this analogy in mind, and unlike SQLite it support multiple writers by giving them separate segment in a file. Calles the programming "language" PySpell, it converts Python into AST then into RUST with a lot of cool features you can enable when the database and programming language is living in the same place.

http://github.com/punnerud/mpedb

Re: Queryable Executables

#49

Post by layer8 »

MomsAVoxell wrote: post #42
kleiba2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if I'm running multiple instances of the same binary?

$ cp /original/binary.app /new/binary.app && /new/binary.app Makes sense to me. Also for production, I would have the app change its name by adding a datetime to the filename, indicating when it was last synchronized. This is a very appealing idea, I too hope it gets 1000% more attention and adoption.

There are applications where you want to run multiple instances but also want to have them use shared state, e.g. for their preferences (editable via their UI).

Or think of an editor or something like Excel. You probably don’t want the files you edit to all be stored in the binary and require separate export/import functions for sharing, or for editing using alternative applications.

And in the end, that goes for pretty much all data. The applications are the tools you use to view or modify the data, but the data remains independent.

Re: Queryable Executables

#50

Post by embedding-shape »

larodi wrote: post #33

>I’m amazed how much collapses into a single domain: SQL. perhaps is more correct to say "all data, including code, is table-representable, even though being a graph" or "everything falls back to tables" or even "relational algebra is all u need", but I strongly disagree SQL being a domain on its all, and that it (all) collapses into such domain. One can collapse segment tables likewise into DATALOG, which is also a…

It's interesting how different people fall into different "everything is a hammer" perspectives. I have a bunch of people around who do the same, everything collapses into table-like structures, but personally I always end collapsing everything into a tree, one way or another. Any problem I encounter, my brain seems to just default into "Yeah, arranged this way, this is clearly just a tree", and it keeps happening for stuff.

And for me, tables are just trees, but for them, trees are just tables.

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