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The TSA's True Focus Isn't Safety - It's Self-Preservation

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Re: The TSA's True Focus Isn't Safety - It's Self-Preservation

#41

Post by mseebach »

codex wrote: post #32
cwp wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That. Or, perhaps, the TSA is objectively awful. Tell you what. Post an article that sings the praises of the TSA and I'll upvote it. Then we can have a discussion about bias.

A fair point. I spent only about 30 seconds on this, but found: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4943959 , "Surprise Gallup Poll: People Think TSA Does A Good Job". This is a poor article: it's merely reporting on a public poll of the TSA. I didn't expect the public to be so approving; I expected views of TSA to be like views on taxes: they're necessary, but everybody still hates them. But perhaps the public is so…

> There have been no terrorist attacks (excepting the shoe bomber, but there have been no shoe attacks since shoes started to be inspected), but does that prove the TSA is effective? Hard to say.

No, really, it's not. Of prevented terror attacks since 9/11, TSA has prevented exactly 0% of them. The shoe bomber was on the plane with the bomb when he was subdued by fellow passengers. The underwear bomber also made it onto the flight.

Only for 2011, but you can bet the TSA wouldn't let you forget if they actually caught a terrorist: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/01/the_tsa_proves...

Re: The TSA's True Focus Isn't Safety - It's Self-Preservation

#42

Post by smsm42 »

codex wrote: post #32
cwp wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That. Or, perhaps, the TSA is objectively awful. Tell you what. Post an article that sings the praises of the TSA and I'll upvote it. Then we can have a discussion about bias.

A fair point. I spent only about 30 seconds on this, but found: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4943959 , "Surprise Gallup Poll: People Think TSA Does A Good Job". This is a poor article: it's merely reporting on a public poll of the TSA. I didn't expect the public to be so approving; I expected views of TSA to be like views on taxes: they're necessary, but everybody still hates them. But perhaps the public is so…

This is a false equivalence argument. Taxes may be necessary, but that does not mean each particular tax, in every particular form is necessary or right. Security may be necessary, but TSA in its current form is a waste of time, money and effort.

>>> There have been no terrorist attacks (excepting the shoe bomber, but there have been no shoe attacks since shoes started to be inspected), but does that prove the TSA is effective? Hard to say.

It's not hard to say. The answer is "no, it does not prove that". Just as the fact that you weren't eaten by a magic dragon does not prove I have protected you from it all these years. Proofs don't work this way - if something didn't happen, you can not just tell "it's because at the same time something else was happening".

Re: The TSA's True Focus Isn't Safety - It's Self-Preservation

#43

Post by Firehed »

bcoates wrote: post #6
cdooh wrote: post #4

While the TSA is messed up and all that, Americans shouldn't be too quick to turn to private companies. Private companies would be profit focused, this means that any way to minimise costs will be taken which may compromise security. I give you Blackwater in Iraq as a good example

I think when most people ask for "private companies" they mean cheaper, less intrusive security theater, in the pre-2001 vein.

The pre-2001 screening was perfectly fine, and would still work today (maybe excepting the improvements to detecting plastic explosives, although I imagine that screening would have picked up the detonators just fine). The other major improvement to security was locking, reinforced cockpit doors, which should have been the standard on all commercial aircraft from the start.

What went wrong during 9/11 was that passengers assumed that a hijacking was a financially-motivated detour, rather than a political/religious attack on our ways of life (and prior to that day, there was no reason to assume otherwise). As such, there was very little resistance to the hijackers as people didn't want to get cut by a relatively small knife. Had they had even the faintest idea that failure to resist could have resulted in what happened, you can say with 100% confidence that things would have gone down differently.

Basically, that trick was good once and once only, regardless of the change in security policy that it brought about. And let's face it - only an idiot would try that again; there are targets with far higher value (and probably much more exploitable security flaws) if someone wanted to send a message again.

Re: The TSA's True Focus Isn't Safety - It's Self-Preservation

#45

Post by chernevik »

Firehed wrote: post #33
dreamdu5t wrote: post #23

Why do people accept this reality when talking about the TSA, but not other government agencies? All government agencies are like this, especially the Federal ones.

The TSA is more actively harmful to the freedoms we (supposedly) cherish, and is a strong push towards a surveillance society and a police state. Many other agencies are equally unproductive (or actually do something useful, just in a very inefficient manner), but not actively working against something we care about.

The TSA is more _obviously_ harmful.

And many other agencies aren't _actively_ working against things we care about -- that is, obstruction per se isn't generally their goal. But they're still obstructive just the same.

Re: The TSA's True Focus Isn't Safety - It's Self-Preservation

#46

Post by pavel_lishin »

Firehed wrote: post #33
dreamdu5t wrote: post #23

Why do people accept this reality when talking about the TSA, but not other government agencies? All government agencies are like this, especially the Federal ones.

The TSA is more actively harmful to the freedoms we (supposedly) cherish, and is a strong push towards a surveillance society and a police state. Many other agencies are equally unproductive (or actually do something useful, just in a very inefficient manner), but not actively working against something we care about.

The TSA is also extremely visible in the public's eye.

How many people do you know that have complained that the CIA was spying on them, vs. how many people do you know who have complained that they got government-groped?

Re: The TSA's True Focus Isn't Safety - It's Self-Preservation

#47

Post by jerf »

cdooh wrote: post #22
mikeash wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security is already highly compromised, and apparently isn't too necessary.

I'd rather have a public entity than a private entity with poor oversight

You speak as if a "public entity" automatically gets to assume non-poor oversight. This would seem to fly in the face of reality a bit.

Re: The TSA's True Focus Isn't Safety - It's Self-Preservation

#48

Post by smsm42 »

So they think patting down 5-year-old girls and 90-year-old grandmas and grabbing my testicles each time I have to fly - not actually making the country more secure? Banning cupcakes and handbags with gun-shaped emboidery is actually not protecting us from terrorists? I can't believe it...

Re: The TSA's True Focus Isn't Safety - It's Self-Preservation

#49

Post by codex »

mseebach wrote: post #41
codex wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fair point. I spent only about 30 seconds on this, but found: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4943959 , "Surprise Gallup Poll: People Think TSA Does A Good Job". This is a poor article: it's merely reporting on a public poll of the TSA. I didn't expect the public to be so approving; I expected views of TSA to be like views on taxes: they're necessary, but everybody still hates them. But perhaps the public is so…

> There have been no terrorist attacks (excepting the shoe bomber, but there have been no shoe attacks since shoes started to be inspected), but does that prove the TSA is effective? Hard to say. No, really, it's not. Of prevented terror attacks since 9/11, TSA has prevented exactly 0% of them. The shoe bomber was on the plane with the bomb when he was subdued by fellow passengers. The underwear bomber also made it o…

One could make the counter argument that some terrorists are discouraged by the difficulty and no longer try. For example, how many plane bombings have their been since Lockerbie? None. Does that mean that we should stop inspecting luggage? Probably not.

Re: The TSA's True Focus Isn't Safety - It's Self-Preservation

#50

Post by fennecfoxen »

Firehed wrote: post #33
dreamdu5t wrote: post #23

Why do people accept this reality when talking about the TSA, but not other government agencies? All government agencies are like this, especially the Federal ones.

The TSA is more actively harmful to the freedoms we (supposedly) cherish, and is a strong push towards a surveillance society and a police state. Many other agencies are equally unproductive (or actually do something useful, just in a very inefficient manner), but not actively working against something we care about.

I take it you don't care about a quasi-reasonable budget, the kind without a deficit of ~1/3. Or about the economic growth lost when tax dollars siphon it out of the broader economy. (Or even away from alternative quasi-productive government infrastructure projects.)

Unsurprising, really; there are entire political parties based on the premise of not caring about those things, and in many countries. ;)

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