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Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

diegobasch.com

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Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#41

Post by tthomas48 »

pc86 wrote: post #28
ollysb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I visited Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and was shown a gun collection owned by a previous member of the army. I was shown a pistol collection, then rifles, then semi-automatics. Really a quite staggering amount of hardware. When I asked what license was required to own this type of equipment he replied none. Without making a judgement on whether or not civilians should be allowed to own this type of equipment in the…

Something gun control advocates seem to forget is that gun ownership is a Constitutional right for Americans. You cannot compare it to driving a car, or buying a television, or buying something from Amazon. If you're going to compare to something else for the purposes of limiting and regulating it, you need to compare to voting, assembling, practicing your faith or some other Constitutional right. When you are requir…

Remember it's an amendment. Which means it can be repealed. We also at one point had an amendment outlawing all liquor and then another that repealed it. The inverse could be done easily with the 2nd.

I'd imagine it's something that won't be out of the question in about 20-40 years. Gun owners are overwhelmingly white, male and older. A demographic that is dying of old age.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#42

Post by [deleted] »

justincormack wrote: post #24
bdunbar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't allow people on the roads without a licence I'm not convinced by this argument. Firearms are not used in public spaces, but in private land, or on club-owned property.

Firearms are never used in public? Ever?

[deleted]

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#43

Post by wonderzombie »

pc86 wrote: post #28
ollysb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I visited Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and was shown a gun collection owned by a previous member of the army. I was shown a pistol collection, then rifles, then semi-automatics. Really a quite staggering amount of hardware. When I asked what license was required to own this type of equipment he replied none. Without making a judgement on whether or not civilians should be allowed to own this type of equipment in the…

Something gun control advocates seem to forget is that gun ownership is a Constitutional right for Americans. You cannot compare it to driving a car, or buying a television, or buying something from Amazon. If you're going to compare to something else for the purposes of limiting and regulating it, you need to compare to voting, assembling, practicing your faith or some other Constitutional right. When you are requir…

Many items in the Bill of Rights are far more nuanced than this absolutist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

For one thing, there are multiple restrictions on freedom of speech. Maybe you think those oughtn't exist, but we're talking about the status quo, not ideal worlds.

This is not to mention the idea that there are multiple ways to adjudicate whether this means "all guns" or "some guns," since there's quite a difference between an assault rifle or handgun and a simple rifle. Then there's the "well-regulated militia" piece.

I'm not advocating for any particular reading. Rather I disagree that the Bill of Rights ought to be the last word in any discussion. I think the Bill of Rights is better suited to a starting point, and the history of the judiciary in this country seems to bear this out in practice.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#44

Post by grecy »

Not once does the author dare to compare homicide rates to other developed countries.

You're almost twice as likely to be killed by a gun because you live in the United States vs. the next developed country (Finland). You're 2.6 times as likely to be killed than the next country, Canada.

Something is very wrong here.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#45

Post by nollidge »

pc86 wrote: post #28
ollysb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I visited Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and was shown a gun collection owned by a previous member of the army. I was shown a pistol collection, then rifles, then semi-automatics. Really a quite staggering amount of hardware. When I asked what license was required to own this type of equipment he replied none. Without making a judgement on whether or not civilians should be allowed to own this type of equipment in the…

Something gun control advocates seem to forget is that gun ownership is a Constitutional right for Americans. You cannot compare it to driving a car, or buying a television, or buying something from Amazon. If you're going to compare to something else for the purposes of limiting and regulating it, you need to compare to voting, assembling, practicing your faith or some other Constitutional right. When you are requir…

I assure you gun control advocates have not forgotten about the second amendment since the opposition will not shut up about it.

Also, all the rights listed in the first ten amendments are limited to the point at which you're infringing on someone else's rights. The threat of death or injury, such as it is, would seem to be a pretty clear reason to limit that right.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#46

Post by Maxious »

bdunbar wrote: post #20
ollysb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I visited Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and was shown a gun collection owned by a previous member of the army. I was shown a pistol collection, then rifles, then semi-automatics. Really a quite staggering amount of hardware. When I asked what license was required to own this type of equipment he replied none. Without making a judgement on whether or not civilians should be allowed to own this type of equipment in the…

> We don't allow people on the roads without a licence I'm not convinced by this argument. Firearms are not used in public spaces, but in private land, or on club-owned property.

> NEWTOWN, Connecticut: People in the rural, hilly areas around Newtown are used to gunfire. [...]

> But in the last couple of years, residents began noticing loud, repeated gunfire, and even explosions [from propane gas tanks used as targets], coming from new places. Near a trailer park. By a boat launch. Next to well-appointed houses.

> [...] ''We're growing,'' [Council Ordinance Committee Chairwoman, Mary Ann Jacob] said on Saturday, describing a town where hikers and mountain bikers competed with gun owners for use of trails and forested areas.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/guns-are-why-were-free-8230-peop...

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#47

Post by Steko »

"I would start by measuring the magnitude of mass shootings as a problem... That’s an average of 18 deaths per year. For comparison, three times as many die from lightning strikes."

This is a bullshit red herring designed to ignore 99.8% of the gun homicides that take place each year in the US [1]. Gun control works to control much more than just mass shootings.

[1] Using 8K as a rough estimate for annual gun deaths from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ushomicidesbyweapon.svg

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#48

Post by zzzeek »

jbellis wrote: post #27
engtech wrote: post #14

Infographic on gun ownership around the world that was published by a Canadian newspaper after a public shooting at a mall. http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/28/guns-ownership-aroun... note that the black circle is not scaled by the population of the country so it isn't visually as useful as it could be. Interesting take aways: * 88.9 guns per 100 U.S. citizens * 45.7 guns per 100 swedish citizens (next highest co…

True, but a common argument from gun owners is that if you're feeling homicidal, you'll find a way to commit murder with or without a gun. Looking at all homicides vs gun ownership seems to bear that out. In fact, there appears to be a negative correlation with gun ownership: http://diegobasch.com/homicides-vs-gun-ownership (Can we start abbreviating Correlation Is Not Causation as CINC now? In any case, if you're go…

The scale and total harmfulness of a mass murder incident is increased dramatically with access to weapons designed and manufactured for military personnel to kill as many people as possible with maximally engineered effectiveness.

In China, where guns are generally (if not totally) banned, they've had a problem with citizens going on murderous rampages in schools with swords and knives. So yes, the lack of guns is not necessarily decreasing murderous intent. But look at something interesting: all 22 victims of the most recent China rampage survived (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/12/14/china-sc...). If this man had a bushmaster, he'd have done a lot better.

Murder with highly refined weapons of war is much more effective than murder without. Removing assault weapons designed for wars would not necessarily decrease the count of incidents but would decrease the harmfulness of those incidents.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#49

Post by hga »

csense wrote: post #25
Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

> tasers A melee weapon versus a deadly ranged weapon is going to be a poor matchup. > guns with rubber bullets If you're the good guy who's doing the most damage, but it's non-lethal, non-debilitating damage, you'd better be prepared to draw aggro. My guess is that only a teacher with a gun would have had a decent chance of ending the massacre early. My understanding of tactics is largely based on video games. Anyon…

You're absolutely right; I have done a fair amount of tactical learning and training and have been shooting since 1st grade or so in 1967 (sic). Tasers can be ignored by many people and defeated by thick clothing and perhaps leather jackets.

If you desperately need to stop someone ASAP, rubber bullets are subpar unless they approach lethal energies, for obvious reasons, and a lot of school teacher types wouldn't be able to wield such weapons effectively. Your guess is correct.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#50

Post by wonderzombie »

tthomas48 wrote: post #41
pc86 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something gun control advocates seem to forget is that gun ownership is a Constitutional right for Americans. You cannot compare it to driving a car, or buying a television, or buying something from Amazon. If you're going to compare to something else for the purposes of limiting and regulating it, you need to compare to voting, assembling, practicing your faith or some other Constitutional right. When you are requir…

Remember it's an amendment . Which means it can be repealed. We also at one point had an amendment outlawing all liquor and then another that repealed it. The inverse could be done easily with the 2nd. I'd imagine it's something that won't be out of the question in about 20-40 years. Gun owners are overwhelmingly white, male and older. A demographic that is dying of old age.

Remember it's an amendment. Which means it can be repealed. We also at one point had an amendment outlawing all liquor and then another that repealed it. The inverse could be done easily with the 2nd.

This is something that often goes without mentioning, so thanks for bringing it up.

The founders were not idiots. They did not want to create a set of stone tablets, a collection of unchangeable holy texts. The Bill of Rights and the Constitution were intended to be changeable, living documents, adaptable to the times.

Maybe it's time to question whether or not the status quo can scale and remains consistent with our societal values.

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