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The tragedy of the commons, AI edition

economist.com

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Re: The tragedy of the commons, AI edition

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see how that helps? A lawyer isn’t going to sign on to take liability risk unless they spend quite a lot of time analyzing the AI’s outputs for possible blunders? So it structurally can’t cost significantly less.

Lawyers normally don't have any liability risks, no? And reputational risks are very limited, a lawyer can always point to a judge, to the other lawyer, to circumstances, and away from their own (or the AI's output) blunder.

Representing anyone in a court room by definition carries liability risks, because the judge can punish the lawyer unilaterally, but not the AI.

Re: The tragedy of the commons, AI edition

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about autoformalizing local laws using agents into TLA+ or something, but it's sufficiently past enough my actual skillset that I'm pretty sure I'd just end up wrestling with slop like a pig in the mud. It's a shame though, I consider law to be just kind of a shitty codebase, with natural language being tortured into cooperating, so it's a really natural fit. I'll probably yield to my temptations e…

I did this for a few federal agencies, here a few examples https://ice.dhs.dev/program/13732-human-trafficking-investig... https://atf.doj.dev/program/44825-open-gun-store-need-ffl LMK if you want to know more.

I do, though I'm not entirely sure what am I looking at on those links. Could you start by explaining that? They look like training courses or something.

I saw a sequence diagram browsing around, seemed to be specific to a sample scenario?

Re: The tragedy of the commons, AI edition

#43
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: "Free, AI-powered legal advice should be good news for workers. Instead, it is proving to be a tragedy of the commons. For workers with genuine grievances, the surge in demand means longer waits for justice. For employers, it means bigger legal bills to respond to claims, both well-founded or fantastical. In the age of AI, a system intended to provide access to justice suffers from, if anything, too…

I found this article quite myopic. This is not a “tragedy of the commons”, it’s just a deficit of state capacity. The state needs to use AI to make bureaucracy instantaneous. That’s the only option, unless you ban AI for this kind of thing (not gonna happen).

> The state needs to use AI to make bureaucracy instantaneous

The stuff of many sci fi tropes - it seldom ends well.

A bit OT but there's a character in a couple of frank Herbert books - Jorj X Mckie saboteur extraordinary in the Bureau of Sabotage (BuSab). BuSab is a government agency responsible for conducting dirty tricks "in lieu of red tape" to help slow down and regulate the vast galaxy-spanning bureaucracy.

Re: The tragedy of the commons, AI edition

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did this for a few federal agencies, here a few examples https://ice.dhs.dev/program/13732-human-trafficking-investig... https://atf.doj.dev/program/44825-open-gun-store-need-ffl LMK if you want to know more.

I do, though I'm not entirely sure what am I looking at on those links. Could you start by explaining that? They look like training courses or something. I saw a sequence diagram browsing around, seemed to be specific to a sample scenario?

tl;dr a "program" here is a government program (get an FFL, file a discrimination charge, apply for a benefit), codified so that every step has an actor, typed inputs and outputs, and a citation to the provision that authorizes it. Agents then walk each party through it. And note it points the opposite way from ChatGPT-drafts-your-tribunal-claim in TFA: that dynamic broke because AI made filing free while adjudicating stayed expensive, so the queue explodes. Codifying the procedure attacks the other side; what's actually required, where it actually goes, and whether you have it; before it becomes a hearing in 2030.

Fair question, and the "training course" read is not an accident; it's the same shape underneath. A program is an ordered chain of modules, each with a declared actor and typed inputs/outputs. Courses are also that. So it renders with the same components. The sequence diagram you found isn't a sample scenario, it's the deal template's actual step graph; the thing an instance runs on.

Three authored files per domain:

- an ontology: the domain's vocabulary, its regulatory frameworks with real citations, the O*NET occupations that staff it, the systems of record it touches

- intents: what a person actually shows up wanting ("open a gun store, need an FFL"), with typed parameters

- deal templates, one per intent: ordered pipeline_steps, each with an actor, inputs, outputs, and a policy_check

The page you clicked is generated from the last two deterministically. No model in that path.

The part that speaks to your TLA+ instinct: I deliberately don't formalize what the law means. I formalize the procedure, and bind each step to the provision that authorizes it. Formalizing semantics is exactly where you get the creative, detached interpretations you're worried about, because every gap gets filled by the model's guess. Formalizing procedure asks the model to transcribe and cite, which is checkable:

- every step input is a ref; param:x, step:3.some_output, system:NICS.event; and it has to resolve. A step: ref must name an earlier step's declared output, so the dataflow is a DAG with referential integrity.

- every step's policy_check must name a framework declared in the ontology. A step that no provision authorizes fails validation.

So most hallucination becomes a build error instead of a plausible sentence. That's the whole trick. Not a smarter model; a narrower artifact.

Concretely, since you're right to expect slop: my first pass at four new agencies came back with 100% of step inputs referencing parameters that didn't exist, and prompts that literally said "Subject?". The validator refused all forty programs. That's the mechanism working; I'd have merged them on a read-through.

Intents and flows for ATF, if you want to see the layer under the program page: https://wiki.doj.dev/agent/atf

Limits, since you'll ask. It decides nothing; no adjudication, and consequential steps are human-gated. It's also not a formal method: the invariants are referential integrity and citation binding, not model checking. The genuinely temporal parts are the deadlines, and those do bite; the NLRB's six-month charge window runs from filing and service, with service being the filer's own duty, so a filing-date-only clock computes the wrong date on a deadline that destroys the claim if you miss it.

Re: the sibling comment about discretion; that's the actual pitch. Discretion hides in the gap between the written rule and the practiced procedure. Writing the practiced procedure down, with a citation per step, is what makes the gap visible.

Re: The tragedy of the commons, AI edition

#45
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: "Free, AI-powered legal advice should be good news for workers. Instead, it is proving to be a tragedy of the commons. For workers with genuine grievances, the surge in demand means longer waits for justice. For employers, it means bigger legal bills to respond to claims, both well-founded or fantastical. In the age of AI, a system intended to provide access to justice suffers from, if anything, too…

I found this article quite myopic. This is not a “tragedy of the commons”, it’s just a deficit of state capacity. The state needs to use AI to make bureaucracy instantaneous. That’s the only option, unless you ban AI for this kind of thing (not gonna happen).

Or reform your legal system? I mean it's clearly not working very well, time for a change.

Re: The tragedy of the commons, AI edition

#46
post #3

Maybe we need a better-scaling legal system that does not take years to resolve simple disputes. I am not convinced AI can replace lawyers, but more people having access to the law without extremely costly fees does sound good to me.

AI doesn't give you a lawyer service without fees though. It makes you feel like you're getting a lawyer service, then you show up in court and say what the AI tells you to say and lose ten times your net worth because what the AI told you to say was legally nonsense.

Re: The tragedy of the commons, AI edition

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do, though I'm not entirely sure what am I looking at on those links. Could you start by explaining that? They look like training courses or something. I saw a sequence diagram browsing around, seemed to be specific to a sample scenario?

tl;dr a "program" here is a government program (get an FFL, file a discrimination charge, apply for a benefit), codified so that every step has an actor, typed inputs and outputs, and a citation to the provision that authorizes it. Agents then walk each party through it. And note it points the opposite way from ChatGPT-drafts-your-tribunal-claim in TFA: that dynamic broke because AI made filing free while adjudicatin…

This comment was automatically removed because it is AI slop.

Re: The tragedy of the commons, AI edition

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is in the article. There needs to be a financial mechanism to deter nuance complaints. A small penalty for lodging a complaint and losing. This fee should help pay for the courts and reimburse and employer for time spent defending itself. (With the judge / magistrate able to wave the fee on compassionate grounds)

That deters honest complaints from poor plaintiffs. The Economist may approve, but justice shouldn't depend on the relative finances and/or power and status of the opposing parties. Of course it does, often. But that's a pathology, not a feature to be proud of. It's true that some complaints are irrational, vindictive, or vexatious, but the system seems quite good at identifying those already.

> That deters honest complaints from poor plaintiffs.

If the complaint has a high probability of success then it has a low probability of making the plaintiff pay costs. If it has a low probability of success then isn't that what we're trying to deter?

Re: The tragedy of the commons, AI edition

#49
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this article quite myopic. This is not a “tragedy of the commons”, it’s just a deficit of state capacity. The state needs to use AI to make bureaucracy instantaneous. That’s the only option, unless you ban AI for this kind of thing (not gonna happen).

> it’s just a deficit of state capacity. That’s what a “tragedy of the commons” is though. The degradation of a shared resource (state capacity) by people acting in their own best interest. The state using AI “to make bureaucracy instantaneous” is a tragedy of the commons. The experience is degraded because before you trusted your grievance will be heard, but now you might get auto rejected by an AI. It’s pretty much…

If you get rejected you can appeal the part the AI rejected the same as if you get rejected by a judge.

Re: The tragedy of the commons, AI edition

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did this for a few federal agencies, here a few examples https://ice.dhs.dev/program/13732-human-trafficking-investig... https://atf.doj.dev/program/44825-open-gun-store-need-ffl LMK if you want to know more.

I do, though I'm not entirely sure what am I looking at on those links. Could you start by explaining that? They look like training courses or something. I saw a sequence diagram browsing around, seemed to be specific to a sample scenario?

Each time I try and explain, it flags comment and says its ai slop.

Each "program" here is a government program, agents orchestrate everything including the collaboration between all parties required.

High points: I have been able to help over 100 people get housing with no HITL on my side.

Note: Each host/subdomain is a project, they all inherit policy from each other and that drives the program generation and orchestration layer. Policies can be managed for the diff agencies at rnc/dnc.dev

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