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EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

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Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#41

Post by varispeed »

afandian wrote: post #4

I don't understand where the all the EU anti-trust and anti-corruption regulators are here. _Governments_ enforcing that you have a Google or Apple account to participate in society is transparently absurd. This isn't only a digital sovereignty issue, it's also an anti-competition issue.

Anti-corruption regulators are paid to look away. If they start investigating corruption like e.g. Ukraine does, then the EU countries will be perceived as corrupt. The goal of these institutions is to keep things under the rug so to speak.

That's why you barely see anything being done and yet everyone can see how corrupt things are.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#42

Post by knollimar »

jolmg wrote: post #28
jmyeet wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a completely unhelpful, overly simplistic straw man argument. We restrict certain activities and places in the real world from certain people all the time. For example, not allowing people under 18 or 21 (depending on your country) into casinos. What we have now is essentially unrestricted access to pretty much anything and a fair assessment is that there is societal harm from that. We're creating gambling add…

> We restrict certain activities and places in the real world from certain people all the time. For example, not allowing people under 18 or 21 (depending on your country) into casinos. These are not equivalent. Restricting access to a casino just requires showing an ID to a person. A few seconds later and that person has completely forgotten everything about you. They will not keep a record of your home address, etc…

do parents not control routers and cell plans? I feel like it would be easy to look here for header based solutions. They probably exist tbh. Then just ban your kid from VPNs.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#43

Post by jmyeet »

xg15 wrote: post #25
jmyeet wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a completely unhelpful, overly simplistic straw man argument. We restrict certain activities and places in the real world from certain people all the time. For example, not allowing people under 18 or 21 (depending on your country) into casinos. What we have now is essentially unrestricted access to pretty much anything and a fair assessment is that there is societal harm from that. We're creating gambling add…

What you're saying is correct - but it's used to push a much more comprehensive lockdown of devices that has absolutely nothing to do with protection of minors. It's as if the government first let businesses install slot machines at every street corner, then suddenly went "I'm shocked, shocked! that we have a massive epidemic of gambling addiction here, we have to mandate anti-gambling shock collars for everyone to t…

This is the slippery slope fallacy and people in tech seem to love this argument. And you can argue in whichever direction you want with it.

For example, "unfettered Internet access is just a series of tubes (shout out to Ted Stevens for that one) for pedophiles to rape your children." So now what? Is it your hyperbole against mine?

The problem is that people are operating under a myth that they have anonymity. You don't. You're one subpoena away from being unmasked online and individuals can do it (eg [1]). When governments do it, they can do it in secret. National Security Letters, pen registers, FISA warrants, etc.

So the idea that "age verification is the first step to a more comprehensive" is flawed in both logical construction (being a fallacy) and that ship has already sailed.

[1]: https://chambers.com/articles/internet-harassment-lawyer

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#44

Post by CommanderData »

Someone on HN suggested parents set devices up for their kids and Browsers and OS's gate by age. I haven't really been able to fault this idea.

State mandates verification and stuff like this makes me suspicious that this is much more than "protecting the children". More advocacy of alternative solutions please.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#45

Post by monk_grilla »

jolmg wrote: post #28
jmyeet wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a completely unhelpful, overly simplistic straw man argument. We restrict certain activities and places in the real world from certain people all the time. For example, not allowing people under 18 or 21 (depending on your country) into casinos. What we have now is essentially unrestricted access to pretty much anything and a fair assessment is that there is societal harm from that. We're creating gambling add…

> We restrict certain activities and places in the real world from certain people all the time. For example, not allowing people under 18 or 21 (depending on your country) into casinos. These are not equivalent. Restricting access to a casino just requires showing an ID to a person. A few seconds later and that person has completely forgotten everything about you. They will not keep a record of your home address, etc…

Any time I've been in an age-restricted venue here in Australia they have taken a picture of me and my ID at the door.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#46

Post by matheusmoreira »

There it is. That's what this "age verification" nonsense was all about. Predictably, the unceasing "think of the kids" rhetoric came down to THIS.

Absolute control over people's computers.

It's not your computer anymore, it's the government's.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#47

Post by filleokus »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #2

> Linux is not explicitly banned. Desktop Linux users could access a website and scan a QR code using a supported mobile wallet. That's a weird way of putting it. You'll basically need a second non-Linux device if you want to use Linux. If your reason for using Linux is "I want to continue using old hardware instead of quickly-obsoleted devices", then you're shit outta luck: you'll have to buy a (potentially second)…

If you want to actually enforce age restrictions that can be checked via some kind of digital identity I don't see how we can avoid the "trusted" hardware requirement.

The key material must be DRM'ed, especially if some ZKP solution is used.

Otherwise all underage kids would download the cool older brothers private key and load it into their GNU Taler client, buy wine and be gateway'ed into heavier Stallmanisms. Before soon EMacs would be all the rage in highschool.

(Of course we can argue the bigger points, if X should require age checks, or if this even should be done digitally etc. But there's a reason why we don't allow the physical equivalent of self-signed keys for physical ID's, they're not trustworthy)

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#48

Post by akersten »

SecretDreams wrote: post #34
akersten wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's simplistic and unhelpful is falling for the narrative that infinite scroll, boobies, and algorithmic feeds are somehow more harmful than ubiquitous government surveillance of the most powerful communication tool on earth. The Internet, more or less, has been around 30+ years and the Something awful and 4chan generations are now in charge. We're not much worse off. The Internet is actually way tamer these days…

Don't know about boobies, but I would guess META/other infinite scroll products are this generation's cigarettes in terms of long term harm and we do a severe disservice to all young people that are exposed to this product. Moreover, asking parents to intervene is obviously not going to work because they, themselves, have been partially ruined by it and lack the critical thinking required to intervene and the prowess…

> I would guess

It's going to take a lot more evidence to get me anywhere near consideration that this is a trade worth making. Again, we know that fast food can be attributed to hundreds of thousands of early deaths per anum, but we regulate that not at all. In fact it's sadly a staple of the average kids diet.

Passing laws out of fear is not how any competent legislature should operate.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#49

Post by petcat »

tzs wrote: post #32
afandian wrote: post #4

I don't understand where the all the EU anti-trust and anti-corruption regulators are here. _Governments_ enforcing that you have a Google or Apple account to participate in society is transparently absurd. This isn't only a digital sovereignty issue, it's also an anti-competition issue.

My understanding is that you are not forced to use this. Sites in the EU that will be required to verify user age will be free to use any method they wish as long as they can show it is as effective as the app and it does not violate privacy laws. Most analysts expect sites will offer multiple ways, for a variety of reasons. Eventually when the full EU Digital Identity Wallet is available age checks can be done using…

"Most analysts" actually expect the opposite:

https://waag.org/en/article/european-digital-id-wallets-are-...

Websites will do the easiest, lowest friction, and most user-familiar thing possible to comply with the laws. And that is just Google or Apple device attestation.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#50

Post by matheusmoreira »

0x000xca0xfe wrote: post #39
SecretDreams wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about boobies, but I would guess META/other infinite scroll products are this generation's cigarettes in terms of long term harm and we do a severe disservice to all young people that are exposed to this product. Moreover, asking parents to intervene is obviously not going to work because they, themselves, have been partially ruined by it and lack the critical thinking required to intervene and the prowess…

Then the solution could be just like the solution to tobacco addiction: tax social media companies HARD, tax all advertising on social media 10x, 20x, or ban advertising on/for social media outright, ban advertising of kids products, ban showing use of social media in movies not rated 18, ... the problem will vanish just like cigarettes. But no, that's not what governments are doing. They want control and surveillanc…

Taxing or banning advertising alone would fix literally everything that is wrong with the web.
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