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NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

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Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#41

Post by rayiner »

moshun wrote: post #26
math_dandy wrote: post #19

My wife did her mathematics PhD under an analogous structure in Germany where it’s fairly common. She was supervised by a professor at the University of Munich and a lab at Bosch, wrote and defended a thesis as usual. Employed in industry immediately after graduating. A great experience.

While I understand the upside, the reality of why it’s being pursued in the United States is that this is intended to drive academia into an advanced version of a trade school.

Germans are big on trade schools. Despite being one of the richest western european countries, Germany (and Switzerland) have along the lowest college graduation rates, because they prioritize trade schools.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#42

Post by rayiner »

gwd wrote: post #37
moshun wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I understand the upside, the reality of why it’s being pursued in the United States is that this is intended to drive academia into an advanced version of a trade school.

Do the math: The number of professorial positions is not growing (or not very quickly). Under steady-state, each professor only needs to train one single tenure-track PhD in their entire career . (Or maybe 10 professors need to train 11-12 students, to account for various forms of attrition.) If you want more PhD's than that, you have to figure out a place for them to work; industry is a good "pressure relief valve".

With the aging population, we also hit peak college attendance 15 years ago.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#44

Post by flutteringfool »

tudelo wrote: post #40
Brystephor wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like an excellent thing based on that last sentence. Anecdotally, I hear people talk about trade school as being much more practical compared to the majority of traditional 4 year degrees. So I am interpreting a "move towards trade school" as an increase in practicality and therefore utility to the student.

I just wanted to echo your comment. Most people, in my experience, pursue an undergrad program with the intention of being employable. This is my personal experience, but also a learned opinion from being a teaching assistant for some years. Places like waterloo stress co-op, it is built in to the program. IMO the average person seeking an education are served under a model that places them in or near industry relate…

Interestingly enough, Kitchener, adjacent to Waterloo has a large population of German-descent. I wonder if the OP's spouse's experience in Germany has any relation.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#45

Post by Beijinger »

umpalumpaaa wrote: post #43
Beijinger wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the Downvote?

What are you referring to?

Why does my post get downvoted?

In all OECD countries, but in particular in Germany, there seems to be an enormous overproduction of PhDs – in case one sees a PhD as the starting point of an academic career or as an important asset on the job market.

https://socialscienceworks.org/2015/07/243/are-there-too-man...

I am aware of that system, doing a PhD in a company as an external PhD student. The "research" is extremely applied. That is good for the company, possibly even a better career choice, but has limited scientific value. You are also unlikely to switch back to academia and become a professor.

Most people mistake "feeling" for "thinking". Just because you don't like my post, does not mean it is not true.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#46

Post by mathisfun123 »

smelendez wrote: post #38
mathisfun123 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people do this kind of "well actually" thing? Yes you're correct but it has nothing to do with whether the degree itself is intended for that.

I mean, how common is a terminal master’s program in STEM fields? I imagine there are departments where it’s more common to get a master’s by dropping out of the PhD program early than through any other path. Especially for people with a bachelor’s in the same field.

> mean, how common is a terminal master’s program in STEM fields?

Lololol extremely. They're cash cows because of foreign students paying full price and not getting tuition waivers.

> Especially for people with a bachelor’s in the same field.

Lol bruh an enormous number of schools have 4+1 programs to enable students getting terminal MS even easier.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#48

Post by skwb »

I did my PhD funded for 3 years off of NIH and the remaining year and so off of corporate research grants. I really valued the fact that I was working on an industrial project, and could see it come to life with real funding and real backing.

The critical part imho will be allowing for enough independence in research, and that the time isn't just wasted filling in remedial RAs pushing pipettes around. Real safeguards will be needed, likely overseen by the PI and committee.

I genuinely hope it works and helps industry "figure out" that R&D is more than just simply productizing over the next quarter.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#49

Post by annzabelle »

mburns wrote: post #31
guitarsteve wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I’m a bit thrown off. What degree are you referring to? Masters is usually about 2 years, though it could be longer in some cases or if worked on part-time. PhD is often 4-6+. What 3-4 year degree did you mean? Bachelors?

I assume they're referring to Professional (Graduate) degrees, like JD or MD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_degree#United_Sta...

Are there professional degrees like that for, say, mathematics or physics?

An aside, the Actuarial profession's fellowship credentials (FSA/FCAS) are considered to be roughly equivalent in content to a professional doctorate (not counting a medical residency), and have a completely different format.

It's mostly exam based from pure self study, and aspiring actuaries typically work full time in the industry after passing the first 2-3 exams and finishing a bachelor's (which can be in any subject). Typical travel time from the first exam to the fellowship credential is 6-8 years, IIRC. Employers pay employees for some study time and for exam leave for each exam, with a bonus for each one passed.

I bring this all up because there are a lot of other ways for education to be structured outside of the BS -> MS -> PhD pathway, and there are ways for learning to be integrated with industry.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#50

Post by dluan »

China actually started piloting the "industry Phd" in 2025, and took inspiration from Japan, Germany, and UK where some programs do industry experience as part of Phd training. A lot of the Chinese programs are in agriculture, engineering, and biotech. China's Ministry of Education actually published the "suggestion for experimentation" (loose translation) in 2023, and it trickled out from there as each province level government and university system started designing their own systems.

http://www.moe.gov.cn/srcsite/A22/moe_826/202312/t20231218_1...

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