Surely this will just be Chinese hardware with a "made in America" label slapped on it. I can't fathom why anyone would allow GM of all companies to get any contracts
GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage
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Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’d love a shed sized battery sitting on the corner of my property if it could give me 5-7 days of power.
That would you pay for that shed size battery?
I mean, I pay around $2,000 (AUD) per annum for electricity from the grid.
If this battery plus some solar panels could get us free power for the next 20+ years, that's easily worth $15-$20k or so.
Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage
#43> Peak Energy is buying its commercial cells via contracts with Chinese suppliers So really just assembly and sales then. I suppose it's a good start and maybe if business takes off they can figure out their own cells.
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Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
AT grid scale, sodium quickly closes the gap on lithium. The safety overhead, active cooling, and physical spacing needed to control lithium’s thermal runaway risk eat away most of its energy density advantage. Plus, CATL is hitting cost parity between full sodium BESS and LFP BESS systems.
The other big reason is the longevity. LFP life span gives you about 2000-5000 cycles depending on where your application can't tolerate the capacity reduction. Sodium Ion can go to 10,000 cycles (27 years) with a 70% capacity reduction at that life. This makes financing a large grid scale storage plant look way better to the bean counters because the investment continues to work and make money, after the 5 year amor…
Does it really look more favorable? My understanding was that such far future returns had minimal Net Present Value
Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage
#45> a round-trip efficiency of 96 percent
Doesn't matter for cars, but I think that's pretty good/important for grid storage.
Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage
#46Surely this will just be Chinese hardware with a "made in America" label slapped on it. I can't fathom why anyone would allow GM of all companies to get any contracts
This is the same story everywhere. Nobody has the know-how or the deep ecosystems needed to do these things.
India has a "made in India" mandate which is hilarious. >80% of solar panel (polysilicon, ingots, and silicon wafers) is from China. Situation is worse with batteries and EVs. Tata, which has been making vehicles for quite some time doesn't have any clue how to make EVs and is building an entire plant with a Chinese company (Chery).
Of course, everything will be labeled "made in ....".
In any country, the super rich have a simple algorithm:
1) Get it manufactured in China, slap your label and sell. Free trade is good for you, thousands of economists reports, blah, blah.
2) When its impossible to compete: China is security threat, we can't allow them. But we'll import most of it (80 - 90% of components) and still put our label.
Its easy to manipulate Govts, lobby or buy (Musk).
Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage
#47> a round-trip efficiency of 96 percent Doesn't matter for cars, but I think that's pretty good/important for grid storage.
Lithium batteries in cars are usually at least that good already. Most of the efficiency lost is in converting back and forth between AC/DC between the grid and the motors, and the rest in the auxillary features such as heating and cooling the cabin.
Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’d love a shed sized battery sitting on the corner of my property if it could give me 5-7 days of power.
For something like a battery backup that last decades that doesn't need maintenance, maybe you could bury it out of the way (like under a deck or lawn?), maybe even under the frost line.
might need to be in some special containment at that size, depending on the technology -- some sodium ion battery implementations are very toxic / highly reactive / flammable.
Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage
#49I want to replace my Lithium home battery, and what I really want to do it to move to one of the new sodium ion batteries..e.g like the one CATL is supposed to have at some point? Anyone have a good idea when these will be available for consumers?
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> This is bad in that when the battery malfunctions, the energy is released at 30x the rate
Got a study you can link about that?
Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not an expert, but from what I read the expectation is for sodium ion batteries to get substantially cheaper than lithium, mainly due to material cost. Lithium makes up 0.002% of the Earth's crust, meanwhile sodium is 2.36%, and there's quite a lot of it in the ocean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth... The main downside is power density, which for grid storage is not as big a deal as it i…
I’d love a shed sized battery sitting on the corner of my property if it could give me 5-7 days of power.
I'm writing this from my off grid shack.
I have 15kwh of lifepo, and even if it weren't hooked to 4kw of solar I could still run my fridge, charge my phone, and run the fan in my fireplace for 4-6 days... longer if I dump the fridge.
It's 6U of deep 19" rack space.
So 2 x that isn't an entire shed-sized battery.
Though I'd happily have a shed-sized battery... I suspect that delivering and covering something that size would cost more than the batteries I already have, though.