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You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

theatlantic.com

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Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#41

Post by breakyerself »

irahul wrote: post #37
breakyerself wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like those are extreme fringe examples not endorsed by even the minority parties in government there. No doubt they have done their job though. Which was to prove to you that those damn gender equality activists have taken us too damn far. React reactionaries of the world. React.

> Which was to prove to you that those damn gender equality activists have taken us too damn far. They haven't proved anything to me other than triggering me into hoping that these crazies are in minority, and don't enjoy the support of majority.

Not a majority. Not even a minority party with enough support to hold office. Literally an insignificant minority of the population.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#42

Post by jrogers65 »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #28
emmapersky wrote: post #4

This article misses two absolutely critical points to the gender neutral debate. 1. Removing (or reducing) fixed gender stereotypes allows individuals to express themselves withut fear that they are different, or that some how their behavior is wrong. Weather girls prefer Barbies and boys prefer GI Joes is not relevant here. There are a significant number of kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes, and this is e…

>* the only way we can ever change this is by starting young and eradicating gender bias where ever we see it* // What's the motivation to change the world from reflecting the different sexes to one in which we pretend there are no differences between the sexes? It's clearly a massive undertaking - instead of allowing children to follow they're natural leaning it's necessary to micromanage all their interactions. Wha…

>it's mainly been girls that have provided rebukes based on gender. Not sure where 2 and 3 year old girls are getting it from but the most often gender-biased comments I've heard targeted at the boys has been "pink is only for girls" and "that's not for you it's for a girl". Strangely in my limited experience (though I work with young children every day) I've yet to hear any boys do the same sort of thing.

This does not surprise me in the least. Females tend to be more socially orientated than males - so any cultural memes are expressed through them more strongly.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#43

Post by irahul »

emmapersky wrote: post #29
mattmanser wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with gender stereotypes? You must accept that our bodies are different. And we have different hormones. It is clear that there is an actual difference between the sexes. Why do you have such a hard time accepting this? Gender stereotypes are perfectly normal because we are different. What I do know is that male suicide rates are climbing . I'm not sure fuzzy gender roles have anything to do with it, but…

What is wrong with stereotypes is that they are stereotypes. They are fine as theoretical constructs in an educated debate, but they reek havoc on those who are still developing their sense of identity. Gender stereotypes are the reason kids get called fag or dyke at school, irrespective of their sexual orientation. This is real, and these kids are suffering terribly because of it. The number of student suicides beca…

> I'm not saying there are no differences (although there are virtually no professions that need be gender specific - men and women can be equally proficient at almost everything), but that we should foster an environment where we minimize those differences because the outcomes of not doing that quite literally destroys lives.

I have absolutely 0 interest in minimizing difference. Some people are straight, some are gay. Straights should act a little gay, or gays should try to be straight to minimize differences?

Minimizing differences is not the objective, embracing differences is.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#44

Post by belorn »

m_eiman wrote: post #22
mattmanser wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with gender stereotypes? You must accept that our bodies are different. And we have different hormones. It is clear that there is an actual difference between the sexes. Why do you have such a hard time accepting this? Gender stereotypes are perfectly normal because we are different. What I do know is that male suicide rates are climbing . I'm not sure fuzzy gender roles have anything to do with it, but…

What is wrong with gender stereotypes? The problem with any stereotype is that it limits choice ("I'm a boy so I -must- play with guns instead of dolls"), which leads to inefficient use of the potential of the next generation. To miss out on a math genius just because she happened to be a girl and was taught that she's too stupid to handle advanced math is detrimental to the advancement of the human race. Boys and gi…

The "girls can't do math" stereotype is not just wrong, its false in the sense that we should just stop saying it. Its more akin to a bad told myth, brining harm where ever its being retold.

The #1 preferred profession from a woman in Sweden is economist, based on yearly polls. If one look at university education, women dominate the class room in every areas of match except one subject (abstract math), and then men only reach above 50% in abstract math after the 3rd year.

So the stereotype is not true. Its not true as in, women are as able to handle math as men, but it also not true because women actually work with math more commonly than men in real life. Its not true in any aspect what so ever, so please, please stop spreading the myth. Its only doing harm. If you need to describe a stereotype, take one that's not this one.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#45

Post by pbhjpbhj »

m_eiman wrote: post #22
mattmanser wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with gender stereotypes? You must accept that our bodies are different. And we have different hormones. It is clear that there is an actual difference between the sexes. Why do you have such a hard time accepting this? Gender stereotypes are perfectly normal because we are different. What I do know is that male suicide rates are climbing . I'm not sure fuzzy gender roles have anything to do with it, but…

What is wrong with gender stereotypes? The problem with any stereotype is that it limits choice ("I'm a boy so I -must- play with guns instead of dolls"), which leads to inefficient use of the potential of the next generation. To miss out on a math genius just because she happened to be a girl and was taught that she's too stupid to handle advanced math is detrimental to the advancement of the human race. Boys and gi…

>stereotype is that it limits choice ("I'm a boy so I -must- play with guns instead of dolls"), which leads to inefficient use of the potential of the next generation //

Stereotypes don't themselves limit choice they enable statistical analysis of populations. It's what you choose to do with the analysis that can lead to limitation of choice.

However, if I'm tall and you're short then it's not better for us together as a [small] population to cut short my legs and give you stilts to give us a semblance of similarity - who's going to reach all the high and low places [efficiently] then?

Of course this doesn't speak to an individuals worth, but your sentence says "the next generation" and so we're looking at the population as a whole.

>To miss out on a math genius just because she happened to be a girl and was taught that she's too stupid to handle advanced math is detrimental to the advancement of the human race. //

Individuals are largely irrelevant to the advancement of the human race.

Now the question is if group A have a propensity born out of their biology to activity X but you have to ensure that equal numbers of group B are doing X, despite their propensity for that activity being statistically reduced over group A's then that is inefficient. I would warrant in a far more significant way. It's a big if of course.

No one is supporting teaching people they're stupid.

>So limit an individual's choices based on gender is as dumb as limiting them based on race. //

I don't agree that these are comparable. If I want to be a mother then my race is largely irrelevant.

However, those who wish to remove gendered play are attempting to limit choice based on gender. By not letting gender-C do activity Y _because that's a stereotypical activity thusfar for gender-C_ you are doing that very thing that you'd claim not to. Moreover you're assuming that the behaviour is bad just because of the gender of the subject.

[FWIW if you'd couched your arguments in terms of something akin to a Kantian imperative instead of in terms of benefit to the human race I think they'd be much stronger].

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#46

Post by unkoman »

irahul wrote: post #23

> A few years ago, a feminist political party proposed a law requiring men to sit while urinating > In 2004, the leader of the Sweden's Left Party Feminist Council, Gudrun Schyman,proposed a "man tax"—a special tariff to be levied on men to pay for all the violence and mayhem wrought by their sex. Ever since Orwell wrote 1984, people keep confusing it for operation manual for effective governance. I sincerely hope th…

Sweden is a horrible place. http://www.scb.se/Pages/PressRelease____342528.aspx

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#47

Post by fudged71 »

I think it's interesting how all toy decisions are judged as messing up children's perceptions of the world in terms of gender, yet the one toy flying off the shelf has no gender association to it, and is perhaps doing more damage to childhood development.

The idea of substituting toys with iPad games is going to have consequences on our children. There are kids going into kindergarden classes these days who don't have the dexterity in their hands to hold crayons, simply because their parents don't let them play with their hands enough; holding things, and manipulating objects.

There are a lot of technologies these days for children that are so focussed on the cognitive development of kids that they ignore the physical development. Your kid doesn't need to be in MENSA by age 4. Teach your kids the tactile skills they need!

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#48

Post by emmapersky »

mattmanser wrote: post #36
emmapersky wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with stereotypes is that they are stereotypes. They are fine as theoretical constructs in an educated debate, but they reek havoc on those who are still developing their sense of identity. Gender stereotypes are the reason kids get called fag or dyke at school, irrespective of their sexual orientation. This is real, and these kids are suffering terribly because of it. The number of student suicides beca…

Minimizing the differences between the sexes destroys lives by emasculating men, leaving them depressed, unable to secure a mate and suicidal. See, we can all do it. The "It Gets Better" campaign has nothing to do with this, taking a tiny subsection of the population and trying to say it shoud apply to us all is bad science. I am absolutely fine with saying we should foster the understanding that there are different…

You are putting words into my mouth, and attacking me with an ad hominem (outrageous is totally unnecessary there). I never indicated we should all be the same, rather we should all be free to develop our identities without the social constructs that society puts in our way. If you want yo express your identity by farting, belching and touching your groin every five minutes, I'm fine with that. But if toy go round saying that women should do that, or its unladylike, or in any other way assert those behaviors as masculine to kids and teens who have no had a chance to fully form their identities, well then we have a problem.

As for source material, the bibliography of Delusions of Gender is a good place to start.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#49

Post by jrogers65 »

curiousdannii wrote: post #39

It's good to be reminded that the toys you like to play with really have nothing to do with masculinity or femininity. But to other people it's the first sign that gender realignment surgery might be required. What gives? What really is the correct response to toys?

But the kinds of toys you play with do have a lot to do with masculinity and femininity. The central point in all of this is that sex and gender are separate (though they do have a strong correlation).

It's not gender realignment surgery but Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS). Your definitions of sex and gender appear to be very confused.

Sex is what sexual organs you possess. Gender is your identity/personality/psychology.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#50

Post by emmapersky »

irahul wrote: post #43
emmapersky wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with stereotypes is that they are stereotypes. They are fine as theoretical constructs in an educated debate, but they reek havoc on those who are still developing their sense of identity. Gender stereotypes are the reason kids get called fag or dyke at school, irrespective of their sexual orientation. This is real, and these kids are suffering terribly because of it. The number of student suicides beca…

> I'm not saying there are no differences (although there are virtually no professions that need be gender specific - men and women can be equally proficient at almost everything), but that we should foster an environment where we minimize those differences because the outcomes of not doing that quite literally destroys lives. I have absolutely 0 interest in minimizing difference. Some people are straight, some are g…

Sadly I think you have completely missed the point here. The notion that there is a way to act gay or straight is exactly what is being debated.
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