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EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

wsj.com

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Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#41

Post by JumpCrisscross »

stavros wrote: post #30
defrost wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but they're all LiPo/Li-Ion batteries, what's the difference? As I mentioned, the article specifically mentions that the battery chemistry has been changed and improved. It neglects to dive into the chemical engineering specifics of such changes, as would be expected for press such as the WSJ. I dare say there is as much variation in the attributes of the LiPo/Li-Ion battery family as there is within the borosilica…

Sure, but why are you assuming RC planes don't use the chemistry improvements as they come out?

It’s a niche, small-volume market. I would be shocked if novel industrial battery chemistries are reaching it within even years of the frontier. (Less surprising would be small-batch novel chemistries. But these aren’t really comparable to the industrially-produced thing.)

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#42

Post by stavros »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41
stavros wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but why are you assuming RC planes don't use the chemistry improvements as they come out?

It’s a niche, small-volume market. I would be shocked if novel industrial battery chemistries are reaching it within even years of the frontier. (Less surprising would be small-batch novel chemistries. But these aren’t really comparable to the industrially-produced thing.)

We mostly use the same 18650 cells everyone else uses for everything, it's not like we're waiting for custom batteries.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#43

Post by rolfus »

raychis wrote: post #31

EV batteries may be lasting far longer than most buyers expected but are consumers really going to trust the data over the headlines? There has been such a propaganda attack on EVs that it will take a long time to overcome that.

We had much of the same skepticism and anti-EV propaganda here in Norway a decade ago, when EV's started becoming popular. The usual claims was that the batteries would have to be replaced every five years, the cars would stop working in the winters, the batteries are fire hazards, the power grid won't support everyone buying EV's, etc.. All of which turned out to not be true.

Today the market share for EV's is 98% and they account for the majority of the total number of cars on the road! The people who bough 1st. generation EV's as a number two car a decade ago chose EV's as their main car before long. My own vehicles are 7 and 12 years old and holding up well, despite the 12 year old having inferior battery chemistry compared to modern cars.

Change isn't always easy or smooth, but this one is inevitable.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#44

Post by defrost »

stavros wrote: post #42
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a niche, small-volume market. I would be shocked if novel industrial battery chemistries are reaching it within even years of the frontier. (Less surprising would be small-batch novel chemistries. But these aren’t really comparable to the industrially-produced thing.)

We mostly use the same 18650 cells everyone else uses for everything, it's not like we're waiting for custom batteries.

Again, the article specifically talks about improvements in car battery life since changes were made to tweak the chemistry (very likely in small dope ways).

The fact that the article states that this appears to result in longer life and the fact that you talk about your RC plane batteries not having a longer life would suggest that the fine specifics of the two batteries may well differ.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#45

Post by VBprogrammer »

beloch wrote: post #33
raychis wrote: post #31

EV batteries may be lasting far longer than most buyers expected but are consumers really going to trust the data over the headlines? There has been such a propaganda attack on EVs that it will take a long time to overcome that.

If batteries are actually lasting, then it's easy to counter the propaganda. Manufacturers simply need to make sure batteries are replaceable and offer guarantees that they'll be replaced on the manufacturer's dime if they degrade.

That's easy to say when you aren't the one considering adding a huge liability to the companies bottom line.

There are also some elements of EV ownership where they require some TLC, like not overcharging them when doing mostly local journeys, not using rapid charging more than necessary etc. If manufacturers were carrying the can it would be easy to let these things go out of the window.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#46

Post by Slothrop99 »

raychis wrote: post #31

EV batteries may be lasting far longer than most buyers expected but are consumers really going to trust the data over the headlines? There has been such a propaganda attack on EVs that it will take a long time to overcome that.

I'll just caution that new things are often over-built to some degree. Then "engineering" is often how much margin they can squeeze-out while still hitting their warrantee targets.

General Motors built an ignition switch for decades which worked mostly just fine. Then they built one so crappy that they killed a bunch of people. Only to save 25 cents or whatever.

EVs depend heavily on 'early adopter evangelism'. I wouldn't read too much into this.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#47

Post by decimalenough »

memoriyato3 wrote: post #39
PaulKeeble wrote: post #5

No manufacturer is testing the batteries life by just charging and discharging them daily for a decade before releasing them. Instead they are using artificial acceleration techniques like getting the battery hot while charging/discharging continuously to simulate a longer lifetime. They can't realistically do anything else to estimate it. But it turns out heat is the big enemy for li-ion batteries and if you can kee…

we have EVs for almost 15 years now, one would imagine some real world data on battery life was collected already, even if not widely shared

Battery chemistries have changed and technology has improved a lot in that time frame. Those 15 year old Nissan Leafs have terrible battery degradation, because they're not liquid cooled (hot = bad) and used batteries that degrade fast (LMO, which autocorrect thinks should be spelled LMAO). Manufacturers learned their lesson and every EV built in the last 5 years is far better on both counts.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#48

Post by beloch »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #45
beloch wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If batteries are actually lasting, then it's easy to counter the propaganda. Manufacturers simply need to make sure batteries are replaceable and offer guarantees that they'll be replaced on the manufacturer's dime if they degrade.

That's easy to say when you aren't the one considering adding a huge liability to the companies bottom line. There are also some elements of EV ownership where they require some TLC, like not overcharging them when doing mostly local journeys, not using rapid charging more than necessary etc. If manufacturers were carrying the can it would be easy to let these things go out of the window.

Saying, "Oh, you just have to baby it and it'll probably be fine!" is probably not the best way to counter claims that EV batteries are unreliable.

Also, consumers currently are the ones taking on liability in adopting new technologies. That's one reason why EV adoption has been a gradual thing. Offer certainty to consumers and they'll look at what they have to gain instead of focusing on what they might lose.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#49

Post by XRG »

borski wrote: post #10
cgyvbunji wrote: post #4

They still die by calendar age based degradation. High miles low years isn't interesting. We know that works well. They don't like talking about the calendar age degradation. Every article like this leaves that part out. It's annoying. Many articles have been written like this. Many more will be written yet. I guess there are still people out there who don't know that EVs are ideal for drivers who accumulate high mil…

This is just untrue.

It is not necessarily untrue (source: am currently involved in battery R&D). However, the degree to which it is true will vary strongly based on the particular choice of chemistry, what sort of additives/agents are used (e.g. scavengers/getters), cell/pack engineering choices (protection against ingress of outside atmosphere and such), and so on and so forth.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#50

Post by brikym »

rolfus wrote: post #43
raychis wrote: post #31

EV batteries may be lasting far longer than most buyers expected but are consumers really going to trust the data over the headlines? There has been such a propaganda attack on EVs that it will take a long time to overcome that.

We had much of the same skepticism and anti-EV propaganda here in Norway a decade ago, when EV's started becoming popular. The usual claims was that the batteries would have to be replaced every five years, the cars would stop working in the winters, the batteries are fire hazards, the power grid won't support everyone buying EV's, etc.. All of which turned out to not be true. Today the market share for EV's is 98% a…

98% of NEW EVs. But the total market share of the fleet is about 1/3. Impressive. If EV share is 90% in a decade I wonder if Norway will see fuel stations being torn down.
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