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Thomann takes legal action against Fender

thomann.de

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Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#41

Post by _kblcuk_ »

codedokode wrote: post #26
frankfrank13 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because strats sell. Oddly shaped guitars don't, or at least not for a long time, and would never break into the top 10 best selling guitar shapes.

But I think people who want to buy a strat, would prefer to buy a Fender strat and not a cheaper copy that has the same shape but might sound worse? I personally do not like the price though.

OTH people who want to buy strat would prefer to buy "strat with all inherited problems already fixed", be it PRS silver sky, or any boutique brand like LSL / Sandberg / Suhr / Tom Anderson.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#42

Post by dwroberts »

Animats wrote: post #19

This is a place where European copyright law is significantly different from US copyright law. In the US, copyright cannot cover a "functional part", which is why there is a third party auto parts industry. Improved functionality can be covered by a utility patent, but that lasts only 20 years. Designs can be protected by design patents, which last only 15 years. So in the US, any rights left in the form of the Strat…

Fender has protected the strat design under the claim of "work of applied art" (https://spotlight.fender.com/newsroom/news/1004) which is also a concept in US copyright law, they just don't have a judgement for it etc. in their favour, unlike in Europe.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#43

Post by wavesplash »

codedokode wrote: post #26
frankfrank13 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because strats sell. Oddly shaped guitars don't, or at least not for a long time, and would never break into the top 10 best selling guitar shapes.

But I think people who want to buy a strat, would prefer to buy a Fender strat and not a cheaper copy that has the same shape but might sound worse? I personally do not like the price though.

Fender makes a whole series of Strats at different price points. The challenge is even at the high end Fender has inconsistent QA, so the 'knockoffs' are sometimes way better quality/consistency. See this video for more info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU7RUpkXsV0

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#44

Post by dofm »

lompad wrote: post #32
dofm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Fender got someone in Germany to buy a Strat type guitar from a Chinese vendor on Aliexpress and ship it to Germany (I assume this part) 2) Fender sued said small Chinese Aliexpress vendor in a regional German court for selling a "copied" design in Germany 3) The small Chinese guitar vendor didn't turn up, obviously 4) Fender got a default judgement that the S-type (Stratocaster etc.) guitar body shape (which has…

This really reads like some american lawyer used an llm and never questioned whether legal precedent is even a thing in germany aside from the highest courts. Have seen several like this in the last months, though in much more niche areas and with barely any publicity.

The law firm is Bird and Bird, and they are not that small.

So the whole thing really looks like legal bullying.

The S-type body shape has been in the public domain in the USA since 2009. One of the luthiers that Fender sent a C&D has hired the lawyer who secured that 2009 judgement against Fender, and he has been quite withering.

Fender have a huge uphill struggle here, and they clearly do not understand just how much time hobby guitarists with money spend watching Youtube. Big mistake.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#45

Post by colechristensen »

codedokode wrote: post #30
dofm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FMIC likely cannot even properly identify the allegedly protected shape of the Strat because they sell multiple Stratocasters that have different body shapes and proportions. They may simply not be able to say "it's this thick", even, because they sell Strats with different thicknesses. They might not be able to say "it has these body contours" because they sell flat, edge-bound Stratocasters. The list goes on. Plus,…

Maybe the law should protect creative part of the shape (that doesn't affect the sound)? I do not know but I think that designing a good instrument is not easy and it is not cool that someone can just copy it without doing any work.

72 years later?

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#46

Post by dofm »

balfirevic wrote: post #40
codedokode wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the law should protect creative part of the shape (that doesn't affect the sound)? I do not know but I think that designing a good instrument is not easy and it is not cool that someone can just copy it without doing any work.

> that doesn't affect the sound That would be the whole shape.

Haha I was going to say that but I thought, no, I don't need the downvotes. Lots of guitarists here (including me)

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#47

Post by codedokode »

balfirevic wrote: post #40
codedokode wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the law should protect creative part of the shape (that doesn't affect the sound)? I do not know but I think that designing a good instrument is not easy and it is not cool that someone can just copy it without doing any work.

> that doesn't affect the sound That would be the whole shape.

I do not think the exact shape has any influence, especially potentiometer or audio jack placement.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#48

Post by codedokode »

wavesplash wrote: post #43
codedokode wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I think people who want to buy a strat, would prefer to buy a Fender strat and not a cheaper copy that has the same shape but might sound worse? I personally do not like the price though.

Fender makes a whole series of Strats at different price points. The challenge is even at the high end Fender has inconsistent QA, so the 'knockoffs' are sometimes way better quality/consistency. See this video for more info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU7RUpkXsV0

I think I watched that video but sadly there is no sound comparison to demonstrate the quality issues.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#49

Post by lenerdenator »

alexjplant wrote: post #13
vintermann wrote: post #7

Apparently Fender got bought up by a private equity fund, Servco Pacific Capital. Who would have guessed.

Makes complete sense to me. Fender has immense cultural cachet among multiple big-spending demographics: blues boomers, Cobain disciples, indie kids, even the hair metal guys via Charvel. The Gibson/Harley-Davidson move of leveraging a company that makes stuff into a lifestyle brand is the play here. Fender would rather throw legal weight around to execute that than compete by building high-quality guitars at a good…

> Fender would rather throw legal weight around to execute that than compete by building high-quality guitars at a good price.

The thing is, they already do that, or have in the relatively recent past. Arguably, they invented that move in the 1980s when they started selling non USA/Japanese models as Squier models.

There's only so much that brings them, though, and guitar music ain't what it used to be. The pie isn't growing very much (maybe at all) and now there's competition trying to capture more of the market.

Would Bill Schultz have done the same thing if the 80s and 90s hadn't been so good to rock music? Hard to say, but if the alternative was "No more Fender", maybe.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#50

Post by dofm »

valdiorn wrote: post #35
dofm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FMIC likely cannot even properly identify the allegedly protected shape of the Strat because they sell multiple Stratocasters that have different body shapes and proportions. They may simply not be able to say "it's this thick", even, because they sell Strats with different thicknesses. They might not be able to say "it has these body contours" because they sell flat, edge-bound Stratocasters. The list goes on. Plus,…

This is exactly the argument that the lawyer for LSL guitars is making - who happens to be the same lawyer that beat Fender back in 2009 on behalf of the USPTO and cost them the copyright in the US :) (Absolutely baller move for LSL to hire that guy)

Yep. Brutal.

ETA: I reckon Fender will fold, because I think the second point is entirely possible. If CBS could have stopped Leo Fender selling S- and T-type body shapes entirely on the basis of what they owned, why did they only secure what amounts to a non-compete agreement?

The big risk for FMIC is in discovery on this point, I reckon. It will do a lot of harm to their reputation if it turns out they have been properly advised they have no claim and they've gone ahead anyway.

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