The room the economy can't see • Hacker News Board

Re: The room the economy can't see

#41

Post by Wilsoniumite » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 1:29 PM UTC

alex_suzuki wrote: post #29

Wilsoniumite wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my follow up pieces in the series, I detail a way to make the economy actually see a lot (not all, but way more than before) of that value. I'm pretty proud of it. It might be politically hard, but it's theoretically very sound.

This was very well written, thank you. Looking forward to the follow-ups.

They already are out! They're linked at the end of the post, but here's a link to the next one:

https://wilsoniumite.com/2026/06/19/make-work-and-sub-subsis...

Re: The room the economy can't see

#42

Post by inigyou » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 1:29 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #22

>> A basic floor of income that everyone gets, Surely the author has to know that providing UBI is just going to lead to inflation of rent, food, and transportation.

It would still compress the distribution wouldn't it?

Imagine UBI of $490k per day (I'm using silly numbers to prevent silly arguments) while poor people are previously earning $10k per day and rich people are earning $510k per day. That is rich people earning 51 times as much as poor people and (regardless of inflation) getting 51 times as much stuff. After the UBI the rich get only 2 times as much stuff as the poor. There will be a redistribution of stuff, the exact amounts are hard to calculate, but if it doesn't crash the economy, rich people will have less than before and poor people will have more, even if the prices are higher on average because there's more money.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#43

Post by idbnstra » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 1:29 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #22

>> A basic floor of income that everyone gets, Surely the author has to know that providing UBI is just going to lead to inflation of rent, food, and transportation.

one of the solutions that they put forward in combination with UBI is LVT. When LVT is implemented, it is likely that those three things will not get more expensive relative to income even with a UBI. Let me know if you want me to explain why.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#44

Post by infecto » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 1:30 PM UTC

tehwebguy wrote: post #36

infecto wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or what if the average consumer wants to live a different life than what you want? I long for the memories of my childhood where I spent it outside for hours on end or when I had the opportunity to use the phone line to use the internet but I am not fully convinced what people what are third spaces. It’s hard to answer and I think partially for better or worse why markets are often a useful tool to o help figure it o…

All of those things you long for have been nuked by the economy too.

Source?

Re: The room the economy can't see

#45

Post by bluGill » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 1:30 PM UTC

kubb wrote: post #14

ixtli wrote: post #9

Very good and well-written. I wish we would also acknowledge that the market, by disincentivizing spend on stuff like this, is performing well. It is optimizing. The reason it matters to acknowledge this up front is so that we can, as the article says, get to the rule below all this which is that the market is default. This is a clear and thorough example of how the profit motive does not lead to the life any of us w…

It's optimizing for something, but ultimately, markets can also be outcompeted by central planning in some sectors. I view the market more as playing the role of a modern God, something that "works in mysterious ways" and is "omnipresent, omnisapient, and benevolent". Not something we would dare to question, because it’s way too complicated for our little minds to understand. Instead we just need to believe in it.

That objection applies to the other options as well. Believe in...

I like the market because it lets me make more choices of my own. I don't like zoning codes because too often they are placing restrictions that restrict freedom for some value that isn't objective.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#46

Post by inigyou » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 1:31 PM UTC

pebbly_bread wrote: post #33

phkahler wrote: post #22

>> A basic floor of income that everyone gets, Surely the author has to know that providing UBI is just going to lead to inflation of rent, food, and transportation.

It would, leading to more resources going towards producing those goods. A UBI is price signal indicating the needs no/low income people matter. Maybe it would be too politically unpopular, lead to too much spending on vices, or some other issue, but inflation shouldn't be a concern unless those particular goods are of a fixed quantity over the long term.

I think as well as UBI we should have universal basic land. Grant everyone the right to a share of an apartment building that doesn't exist yet on a specific plot of land on the city outskirts. Few people will want to actually group together and build apartment buildings on vacant land on the city outskirts, but I would hope that just having the option would bring down the price of land for everyone. Private options would have to actually compete with the basic public option instead of taking advantage of their customers having no alternatives. Same thing that already happened in telecoms.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#47

Post by inigyou » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 1:32 PM UTC

PowerElectronix wrote: post #5

It is clear that having that room exist is a priority for some people. The market doesn't have a will of its own or compels people to be efficient and produce returns (which, by the way, this room surely produces down the line). The market is the cumulative wants and needs of the people matched against the cumulative offerings of the same people. Nothing more and nothing less. This room is clearly a need and a want f…

It's not the same people. When it comes to land, it's the cumulative wants and needs of regular people being matched against the cumulative offerings of greedy paperclip maximizers.

When it's furniture I have the option to make my own furniture, that's my BATNA if IKEA tries to screw me, and so IKEA has to be better than that if it wants to make any money. I don't have that option with land because it cannot be created or destroyed.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#48

Post by infecto » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 1:32 PM UTC

multjoy wrote: post #31

infecto wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or what if the average consumer wants to live a different life than what you want? I long for the memories of my childhood where I spent it outside for hours on end or when I had the opportunity to use the phone line to use the internet but I am not fully convinced what people what are third spaces. It’s hard to answer and I think partially for better or worse why markets are often a useful tool to o help figure it o…

What people generally want is time, and then if you have time you obviously need to spend it somewhere. If not work or home, then literally a third space. >t’s hard to answer and I think partially for better or worse why markets are often a useful tool to o help figure it out The point of the article is that the markets are blind to this sort of social good.

I am not convinced any other entity can do “social good” on average better than some form of a market. The simpler explanation here is that board games are still a niche hobby and not a lot of folks play them to require a third space. And these third spaces generally still exist but they require some organization.

The point of my comment is I don’t agree with the article.

Back to what I said. Kids don’t even play outside anymore and I don’t think it’s because the market took away third spaces and is a much more complicated problem.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#49

Post by hiddencost » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 1:33 PM UTC

infecto wrote: post #24

ixtli wrote: post #9

Very good and well-written. I wish we would also acknowledge that the market, by disincentivizing spend on stuff like this, is performing well. It is optimizing. The reason it matters to acknowledge this up front is so that we can, as the article says, get to the rule below all this which is that the market is default. This is a clear and thorough example of how the profit motive does not lead to the life any of us w…

Or what if the average consumer wants to live a different life than what you want? I long for the memories of my childhood where I spent it outside for hours on end or when I had the opportunity to use the phone line to use the internet but I am not fully convinced what people what are third spaces. It’s hard to answer and I think partially for better or worse why markets are often a useful tool to o help figure it o…

IDK if you're familiar with Church, but that's the most heavily used third space. And we grant it tax exempt status which it abuses to push bad laws.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#50

Post by inigyou » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 1:33 PM UTC

alephnerd wrote: post #11

How much of this is just due to changing tastes? For example, Minecraft, Roblox, or an Xbox live subscription are the new lobbies for younger generations. Heck, the article mentions Internet cafes but those died out once computer and smartphone penetration reached high double digits. There are fewer of these third spaces because there is less demand for them than before due to changing preferences, as could be seen w…

Playing Minecraft with friends at a lan party in a social room is better than playing it at home.