Live data from Hacker News

US Supreme Court drug users cannot be prohibited from firearms [pdf]

supremecourt.gov

41–50 of 56 posts

Re: US Supreme Court drug users cannot be prohibited from firearms [pdf]

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with jail time for legislators and governors uh-huh. what provision in the Constitution authorizes this, exactly? is there anything in contemporaneous writings (Federalist Papers, for example) where someone advocated that a reasonable separation of powers would be "Article 3 judges should have the power to send legislators to jail as a side-effect of ruling that a law is unconstitutional"? you can argue about the 2…

The constitution is the highest law of the land. Violating it has consequences. They should be enforced. > but arguing that legislators should be thrown in jail for passing laws you don't like is flashing a big neon "I'm a crank" sign Ad hominem aside, this is equivalent to “We should have laws but they should be selectively meaningless”

> The constitution is the highest law of the land. Violating it has consequences. They should be enforced.

yeah, the consequences are that the law in question gets overturned.

you're not arguing for enforcing existing consequences, you're trying to make up a whole new set of consequences.

people get extremely emotional about the topic of firearms, so let's take what you're saying and apply it to a different context, and hopefully you can understand how ludicrous it is.

FDR signed an executive order [0] for internment of American citizens of Japanese ancestry. it was challenged in a case that went to the Supreme Court [1].

SCOTUS upheld that executive order as constitutional. but let's imagine it had gone the other way, and been struck down as unconstitutional.

with the "consequences" you're proposing, a decision striking down EO 9066 would also imply President FDR must go to jail, wouldn't it? after all, he violated the Constitution. that is an insane outcome - a 5-4 SCOTUS vote could send a President to jail?

the Constitution clearly lays out methods of punishing elected officials - impeachment and possible removal by Congress. in your zeal to defend one tiny sentence of the Constitution, you're inventing out of whole cloth a completely separate way of punishing elected officials, one which would itself be unconstitutional.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9066

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korematsu_v._United_States

Re: US Supreme Court drug users cannot be prohibited from firearms [pdf]

#42
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The chief purport of these amendments was to annex to the Constitution a more specific bill of rights. Freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press were thereby secured; ...; the private right to bear arms; ~ History of the United States Volume II - James Schouler 1880 > [T]he right ... to have full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings concerning personal liberty, personal security, ... including the c…

Your perplexity/ ChatGPT quotes won't erase the fact that the blue states laws around guns haven't actually been ruled unconstitutional…

They're not from AI. And that's because most judges are hacks and the supreme court is generally a bunch of corporate hacks who slow walk 2nd amendment challenges.

Re: US Supreme Court drug users cannot be prohibited from firearms [pdf]

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s not. The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed, _because_ a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State.

What an absurd thing to say. You just made my point - a well regulated militia vital to the amendment. So why in your vast wisdom are you opposed to regulations associated with a regulated militia?

Well, the amendment is definitely ambiguous hence all these discussions. And everyone interprets it to their liking.

Do I think the government needs internal counterforce? Absolutely and there are plenty of countries today to see why.

Do I think it’s great that every nutjob has a gun? Well no, I don’t.

I am not saying that the amendment is great, but I don’t believe the absolute right to bear arms was intended. That said, it could very well be that the authors did not see it coming that _anyone_ could have a gun, because that was most probably not the case back then. And perhaps here today’s liberal thinking hits the historic context.

Last but not least, one interpretation of “regulated” is this. I am not saying it is what was intended, but lots of people argue that:

"Well-regulated in the 18th century tended to be something like well-organized, well-armed, well-disciplined," says Rakove. "It didn't mean 'regulation' in the sense that we use it now, in that it's not about the regulatory state. There's been nuance there. It means the militia was in an effective shape to fight."

Also, the absolute right is the _precursor_ anyway, it is given such that militia can be formed, and the way the militia is organized is not a condition to the right. But admittedly, it is not clear to contemporary reader what they meant.

Re: US Supreme Court drug users cannot be prohibited from firearms [pdf]

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A well regulated militia would determine what types of guns, what ammo, what uniforms, what qualifies a member, etc. Besides the freedom of the State means that its not subordinate to another State. Not that random people get to shoot at the duly elected State government.

You are simply reading the sentence wrong. Well regulated militia is not condition.

Right, it was juste written down there to decorate the paper of the constitution.

Re: US Supreme Court drug users cannot be prohibited from firearms [pdf]

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with jail time for legislators and governors uh-huh. what provision in the Constitution authorizes this, exactly? is there anything in contemporaneous writings (Federalist Papers, for example) where someone advocated that a reasonable separation of powers would be "Article 3 judges should have the power to send legislators to jail as a side-effect of ruling that a law is unconstitutional"? you can argue about the 2…

The constitution is the highest law of the land. Violating it has consequences. They should be enforced. > but arguing that legislators should be thrown in jail for passing laws you don't like is flashing a big neon "I'm a crank" sign Ad hominem aside, this is equivalent to “We should have laws but they should be selectively meaningless”

Checks and balances man. If a legislature makes an illegal law it should be struck down by the courts or vetoed. The system is working as designed.

Judges being able to throw people from other branches in jail would cause all kinds of other problems.

Re: US Supreme Court drug users cannot be prohibited from firearms [pdf]

#46
post #10

They also need to invalidate, with jail time for legislators and governors, all the flagrantly unconstitutional gun control laws in blue states. A constitutional right is a constitutional right.

Read the second amendment: the constitutional right is about “A well regulated Militia”.

This argument has been beaten to death in the courts for hundreds of years at this point.

Why does everyone think that they are some kind of arm chair lawyer who magically knows the right way to read it, and everyone else is wrong?

As a country, we need to have a serious conversation about guns. This argument just makes noise and gets in the way of actually talking about the real issues.

The two real questions are:

1. what types of guns do we want people to be able to own - where do we as a society draw the line on what’s okay for people to have and what we want to keep in the domain of the government control. This is an incredibly difficult question, especially in a country that was founded in an armed revolution and also suffers mass shootings

2. Under what conditions do we remove someone’s right to own guns?

Let’s talk about that, not beating the wording horse to death for the millionth time.

Re: US Supreme Court drug users cannot be prohibited from firearms [pdf]

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. It’s about the right. The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed, _because_ a well regulated Militia, is necessary to the security of a free State. The point is to prevent the state from monopolizing violence, simple as.

A well regulated militia would determine what types of guns, what ammo, what uniforms, what qualifies a member, etc. Besides the freedom of the State means that its not subordinate to another State. Not that random people get to shoot at the duly elected State government.

regulation, as a constraint vs extremes of behaviour, keeping something within acceptable boundries.

duly elected or not, a government that persues an undue course of action is in need of regulation. the proximal context, a militia occupying cities to enforce the taking of taxes, liberties, and autonomy is a militia requiring regulation.

that regulation manifests as a resistance to application of force that is bane rather than boon to the social order.

that requires the bearing of arms that place the regulating faction [plebe] on equal terms with the offending militia.

Re: US Supreme Court drug users cannot be prohibited from firearms [pdf]

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an absurd thing to say. You just made my point - a well regulated militia vital to the amendment. So why in your vast wisdom are you opposed to regulations associated with a regulated militia?

Well, the amendment is definitely ambiguous hence all these discussions. And everyone interprets it to their liking. Do I think the government needs internal counterforce? Absolutely and there are plenty of countries today to see why. Do I think it’s great that every nutjob has a gun? Well no, I don’t. I am not saying that the amendment is great, but I don’t believe the absolute right to bear arms was intended. That…

>That said, it could very well be that the authors did not see it coming that _anyone_ could have a gun, because that was most probably not the case back then.similar to the 3d printing issue, "back then" the production of a PMF was an achievable goal for anyone apriased of the technology, the use of modern smokeless powder steps up the tech requirements vs, manufacturing a blackpowder musket with twisted band iron approach.

the requirement of the right not being infringed, has the function of enabling the people to regulate the activities of a militia acting outside of its authority, as the final check.

Re: US Supreme Court drug users cannot be prohibited from firearms [pdf]

#49
someone being a user of a drug, doesnt mean they lose any right to keep and bear a firearm as soon as they start using in perpetuity since, "once a user always a user"

a responsible person should realize they violate more than they vindicate by getting HAF and taking potshots at hallucination delusions and illusions.

bare minimum, put the guns away, for boilerplate in a timelocked safe, until you are on level cognition again.

removing someones right to effective self defense, permanently in complement to a temporary condition is disingenuous considering alcohol use is somehow not a permanently disqualifying condition vs "drug" use being ineffable impairment.

Re: US Supreme Court drug users cannot be prohibited from firearms [pdf]

#50
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are simply reading the sentence wrong. Well regulated militia is not condition.

Right, it was juste written down there to decorate the paper of the constitution.

Prefatory clause, justifies the following operative clause. Does not restrict the latter, but explains why it is needed.
Post reply on HN