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Tesla Full Self Driving uses bicycle lane in official Denmark approval video

politiken.dk

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Re: Tesla Full Self Driving uses bicycle lane in official Denmark approval video

#41

Post by tzs »

I was curious how people working on self driving cars handle the large variation in local and region traffic laws and did a bit of searching.

For example in some places a car making a turn that will cross a bike lane is required to merge into the bike lane before the turn (California and Washington for example). On others (Oregon for example) the car must not do so.

School buses are another good example. On a road with lanes in both directions when do you stop for a school bus heading the opposite way that is stopped with its red lights flashing and stop sign extended?

In some place the answer is "always". In others it depends on how many lanes there and whether or not there is a barrier like a median strip between the two directions.

One approach is to not let your self driving system operate in places where you have not explicitly added all the local and regional rules to your system.

Another approach is to try to learn the area with AI. It sees lots of humans making turns from the bike lane, it makes its turns from the bike lane too.

An issue with that approach is that a lot of humans violate traffic laws, so you have the danger that your self driving system learns to violate traffic laws.

Re: Tesla Full Self Driving uses bicycle lane in official Denmark approval video

#42

Post by lnsru »

vardump wrote: post #16
lnsru wrote: post #9

So now I am in a beta test as a vehicle dummy without a chance to opt out. My model Y can’t keep lanes what my entry level Škoda does perfectly fine. My model Y slams on the brakes occasionally when I try cruise control feature on empty highway. I reported this defect as a case for warranty, but according Tesla this is fine functionality.

Do you mean FSD or Autosteer (or Autopilot or whatever it's called now). I think Tesla left Autosteer purposefully crappy. FSD is excellent at keeping the lane, way better than what your Škoda can do.

It’s old free Autopilot. It doesn’t convince me to buy FSD, hardware is the same at the end.

I am used that demo shows best features of the product…

Re: Tesla Full Self Driving uses bicycle lane in official Denmark approval video

#43

Post by vardump »

Veserv wrote: post #34
runarberg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a sign which explicitly bans cars from entering it is still illegal (I assume; I never took the drivers license in California). In the video you can clearly see the street has a sign that says no cars and no motorcycles. The Tesla presumably saw that sign and either doesn’t recognize it (unlikely) or has a software telling the car to ignore it (more likely).

It most likely does not recognize the sign. Last I saw, after years of furious development they were still unable to recognize standard "Do Not Enter", "Road Closed", and "One Way" signs in the US. Here is a video [1] from a week ago where it fails to recognize a clearly visible "Do Not Enter" sign with "One Way" road indications. [1] https://bsky.app/profile/realdanodowd.bsky.social/post/3mnhw...

You should have shown the original video and not the one from Dan O'Dowd. He is not interested in pedestrian safety in any way, he is doing this only to promote his own company, Green Hills Software. He didn't have any issues with Tesla until it stopped using his software.

The original: https://x.com/DirtyTesLa/status/2062260954709049840 or https://xcancel.com/DirtyTesLa/status/2062260954709049840.

Re: Tesla Full Self Driving uses bicycle lane in official Denmark approval video

#44

Post by f33d5173 »

tzs wrote: post #41

I was curious how people working on self driving cars handle the large variation in local and region traffic laws and did a bit of searching. For example in some places a car making a turn that will cross a bike lane is required to merge into the bike lane before the turn (California and Washington for example). On others (Oregon for example) the car must not do so. School buses are another good example. On a road wi…

> An issue with that approach is that a lot of humans violate traffic laws, so you have the danger that your self driving system learns to violate traffic laws.

Phrased another way, a benefit of that approach is that if the local conditions necessitate or advise breaking certain traffic rules, your system learns to do so while retaining plausible deniability that it isn't intentional.

Re: Tesla Full Self Driving uses bicycle lane in official Denmark approval video

#45

Post by drivingmenuts »

red75prime wrote: post #29

A driver might get a ticket. The navigation data will be updated. The next version might be better at interpreting signs (or a better balance between the navigation data and visual perception). The end.

I don’t understand it, either, except to guess that the companies behind self-driven taxis have enough money to buy off the politicians who normally insist that everyone else follow the laws.

Enough money and any law becomes a suggestion.

Re: Tesla Full Self Driving uses bicycle lane in official Denmark approval video

#46

Post by Veserv »

vardump wrote: post #43
Veserv wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It most likely does not recognize the sign. Last I saw, after years of furious development they were still unable to recognize standard "Do Not Enter", "Road Closed", and "One Way" signs in the US. Here is a video [1] from a week ago where it fails to recognize a clearly visible "Do Not Enter" sign with "One Way" road indications. [1] https://bsky.app/profile/realdanodowd.bsky.social/post/3mnhw...

You should have shown the original video and not the one from Dan O'Dowd. He is not interested in pedestrian safety in any way, he is doing this only to promote his own company, Green Hills Software. He didn't have any issues with Tesla until it stopped using his software. The original: https://x.com/DirtyTesLa/status/2062260954709049840 or https://xcancel.com/DirtyTesLa/status/2062260954709049840 .

Ah yes, consistently, correctly, and truthfully highlighting serious safety defects and unacceptable design oversights for years in the products of a trillion dollar company with a rabid fanbase well known for running smear campaigns is "not interested in pedestrian safety".

I imagine everybody relishes the opportunity to get smeared by entirely false accusations by Tesla promoters with a conflict of interest. You can tell the Tesla promoters running the smear campaigns are worth listening to because their smears keep getting disproved by video evidence.

Please point at any clearly visible video evidence that their whistleblowing is inaccurate. No "shaky cam" "Bigfoot" evidence where you point at something blurry and falsify a claim to fit your desired narrative.

Your job would have been a lot easier if any of those Tesla Promoters accepted the Dawn Project's offer to attempt the tests themselves with their own Tesla's and their own cameras giving them the perfect platform to debunk the Dawn Project's claims. Weird how they all chickened out on that slam dunk.

Re: Tesla Full Self Driving uses bicycle lane in official Denmark approval video

#47

Post by vardump »

Veserv wrote: post #46
vardump wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should have shown the original video and not the one from Dan O'Dowd. He is not interested in pedestrian safety in any way, he is doing this only to promote his own company, Green Hills Software. He didn't have any issues with Tesla until it stopped using his software. The original: https://x.com/DirtyTesLa/status/2062260954709049840 or https://xcancel.com/DirtyTesLa/status/2062260954709049840 .

Ah yes, consistently, correctly, and truthfully highlighting serious safety defects and unacceptable design oversights for years in the products of a trillion dollar company with a rabid fanbase well known for running smear campaigns is "not interested in pedestrian safety". I imagine everybody relishes the opportunity to get smeared by entirely false accusations by Tesla promoters with a conflict of interest. You ca…

In this case, the whistleblowing was done by DirtyTesla (as credited by Dan). Respect to him for that. Dan has created proven fake videos where Tesla is allegedly unsafe, but got caught. So he has lost his credibility.

It's very important to call out these issues AND to do it honestly.

Re: Tesla Full Self Driving uses bicycle lane in official Denmark approval video

#48

Post by maxerickson »

f33d5173 wrote: post #44
tzs wrote: post #41

I was curious how people working on self driving cars handle the large variation in local and region traffic laws and did a bit of searching. For example in some places a car making a turn that will cross a bike lane is required to merge into the bike lane before the turn (California and Washington for example). On others (Oregon for example) the car must not do so. School buses are another good example. On a road wi…

> An issue with that approach is that a lot of humans violate traffic laws, so you have the danger that your self driving system learns to violate traffic laws. Phrased another way, a benefit of that approach is that if the local conditions necessitate or advise breaking certain traffic rules, your system learns to do so while retaining plausible deniability that it isn't intentional.

It's not that plausible, unless the idea is that differing traffic laws is some obscure concept.

Re: Tesla Full Self Driving uses bicycle lane in official Denmark approval video

#49

Post by Veserv »

vardump wrote: post #47
Veserv wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, consistently, correctly, and truthfully highlighting serious safety defects and unacceptable design oversights for years in the products of a trillion dollar company with a rabid fanbase well known for running smear campaigns is "not interested in pedestrian safety". I imagine everybody relishes the opportunity to get smeared by entirely false accusations by Tesla promoters with a conflict of interest. You ca…

In this case, the whistleblowing was done by DirtyTesla (as credited by Dan). Respect to him for that. Dan has created proven fake videos where Tesla is allegedly unsafe, but got caught. So he has lost his credibility. It's very important to call out these issues AND to do it honestly.

Nope. Those accusations were proven false and the people who made them have lost all their credibility. It was just a smear campaign by Tesla promoters so effective that here you are parroting it against reality to protect a trillion dollar company that actively lies and promotes illegal and dangerous behavior. They really outdid themselves with that smear campaign.

If you disagree, I presented the criteria for evidence needed to support your case. Remember, no shaky cam.

Re: Tesla Full Self Driving uses bicycle lane in official Denmark approval video

#50

Post by runarberg »

Veserv wrote: post #34
runarberg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a sign which explicitly bans cars from entering it is still illegal (I assume; I never took the drivers license in California). In the video you can clearly see the street has a sign that says no cars and no motorcycles. The Tesla presumably saw that sign and either doesn’t recognize it (unlikely) or has a software telling the car to ignore it (more likely).

It most likely does not recognize the sign. Last I saw, after years of furious development they were still unable to recognize standard "Do Not Enter", "Road Closed", and "One Way" signs in the US. Here is a video [1] from a week ago where it fails to recognize a clearly visible "Do Not Enter" sign with "One Way" road indications. [1] https://bsky.app/profile/realdanodowd.bsky.social/post/3mnhw...

I think that is worse. There are only a few hundred traffic signs in use in Europe and even I could write a supervised learning model in an afternoon that could recognize all of them with very low uncertainty. And if I had Tesla budget I could easily have a tiny portion of my workers label enough data in another afternoon.

If this is true, and Tesla does not do this, that means that somewhere up in Tesla’s chain of command somebody told their workers not to do this. That is, somebody at Tesla made the decision that Tesla cars should not be able to recognize all the traffic signs. If that is the case, this person should be held criminally liable and Tesla cars should be pulled off the market (and the roads) by regulators who are (or should be) concerned about consumer (and road) safety.

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