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Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

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Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#41
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sparta, their entire civilization basically atrophied because of it.

Sparta and Rome suffered from the same problem, actually. They approached it differently. Rome survived. Sparta didn't. The problem was that citizenship or social class was based on inheritance and it was essentially a closed system. At a time when infant mortality was so high and being in the military was risky, this meant that the ruling class diminished over time. The author of this piece touches on how most soldi…

>For example, Ben Franklin didn't consider Germans "white" (famously describing them as "swarthy" [1]). Through different waves, different European ethnic groups became "white". The Irish didn't become "white" in the US until 100-150 years ago. Arabs became "white" in 1915 [2].

To be a bit pedantic, you're combining two different senses of 'white' there: in the US, being culturally considered white by others was distinct from being legally considered white by the government, because from the Naturalization Act of 1790 onward, naturalization was legally limited to "free white persons" (subject to some later modifications, though "free white person" remained a category). From a legal perspective, the Irish (and Germans) were always considered white, and there was never any question (if I recall correctly, for Mexicans, there was at some time advice that legal whiteness should actually be determined based directly on skin color). From a cultural perspective, views could of course be more varied, and there's the complexity that views and discrimination could certainly be based on factors other than seeing people as white or non-white, even at a racial level for the types of people who made distinctions within whiteness. And of course, cultural views remain varied: I've been around some very waspy wasps in the US who, knowing my Greek name, probably didn't consider me to be entirely white.

By the time of the case you cite, the legal question more broadly had become a mess of different and sometimes contradictory decisions, in part because, when it actually needed to be litigated, 'scientific racism' and 'common knowledge' could go in very different directions, as one might expect from something so arbitrary and contrived. Dow was decided on scientific racism lines, and made some Arabs white (particularly Syrians), though there were later cases with the opposite determination, in part because Dow was just Fourth Circuit, but also at times including arguments like 'from a place not bordering the Mediterranean'. Thind, on the other hand, was determined on common knowledge lines, and can bizarrely be summarized as 'being Aryan and very racist does not make a person white' (the entire set of pre-Thind cases around Indians, actually, often have wild and arbitrary decisions; I recall that one lower court decision could be summarized as 'this scientific argument seems dubious, but the guy seems like an upstanding character, so it seems fair to say he's white').

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like current US. Military industrial complex just starts wars randomly, and does not bother with approval from senate.

I live in a country that was ruled by the military many times in the past, and the US never looked to me under treat of a military coup. In my country, any political problem real or perceived, and part of the population are already asking for the military to attempt a coup and fix things.

We had a coup attempt without military intervention on 1/6. The current regime is actively purging the military leadership.

Countries don’t have military coups or juntas because they are fundamentally bad or whatever. It happens becuase controls and civil authority is too weak, and we are in a cycle where the US is dismantling all controls and adopting a position of unlimited executive power. So it’s a matter of “when” some general intervenes. Either at the behest of someone or to save the republic.

You don’t really need a lot of people. Maybe a battalion or two.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like current US. Military industrial complex just starts wars randomly, and does not bother with approval from senate.

I live in a country that was ruled by the military many times in the past, and the US never looked to me under treat of a military coup. In my country, any political problem real or perceived, and part of the population are already asking for the military to attempt a coup and fix things.

In the USA, there was never a need for a military coup. After the Spanish-American war, the MIC was so wealthy that they simply bought influence. A few million handed to influential politicians is far cheaper than a coup.

The USA has the best government that money can buy.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#44
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also stated in enterprise that Klingons do have other castes, the warrior caste is just the most dominant. (Although the caste system doesn't seem strictly hereditary)

is it really that far fetched that instead of bikes, football, and basketball, klingon society decided to give all their kids batleths, so everyone grows up really into it?

Japanese militarism was a thing recently, so the kids got eveything but the batleth.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#45

I'm sorry, this is just sententious bloviation. The sources are so thin, there's no reason to go around imputing all these fantastical ideas that somehow benefit your own beliefs. It's just boring and insipid to watch people fall into this trap over and over.

Agreed, the article contained a lot of speculation and not many historical examples. It was more about what the author thought “made sense” than what reality was. It was also quite long winded. Probably could have been summarized to maybe 3 reasons. Oddly enough I don’t see “money” mentioned, at least not simply, and that should probably be reason #1

Why would "money" be necessary?

https://acoup.blog/2025/01/03/collections-coinage-and-the-ty...

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#46
post #32
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exact quote "python is for brahmins" brings up top links on incels.is and 4chan, so perhaps OC's character is something worth dismissing.

This is a bizarre reply? IIRC there was a law suit involved

That's how the story goes, yes.

It's satirical fiction. There was no lawsuit, just blogs saying there was.

https://www.m9.news/social-media-viral/viral-microsoft-caste...

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#47
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, the article contained a lot of speculation and not many historical examples. It was more about what the author thought “made sense” than what reality was. It was also quite long winded. Probably could have been summarized to maybe 3 reasons. Oddly enough I don’t see “money” mentioned, at least not simply, and that should probably be reason #1

If you think its quite long winded taken note it's title includes PART 1

Oh you haven't seen the four-part series on iron (https://acoup.blog/2020/09/18/collections-iron-how-did-they-...) that ended up with parts (I, II, III, IVa, IVb, addendum).

The Helm's Deep series ended up with 8 posts. Well worth reading.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#48

I'm sorry, this is just sententious bloviation. The sources are so thin, there's no reason to go around imputing all these fantastical ideas that somehow benefit your own beliefs. It's just boring and insipid to watch people fall into this trap over and over.

Agreed, the article contained a lot of speculation and not many historical examples. It was more about what the author thought “made sense” than what reality was. It was also quite long winded. Probably could have been summarized to maybe 3 reasons. Oddly enough I don’t see “money” mentioned, at least not simply, and that should probably be reason #1

It is a little rich to simultaneously complain that the article is too long, that it didn't go into enough detail, and that it didn't support your pet theory. Maybe if you'd read the article, you'd find out that not only does the author discuss money as a motivating factor as the first example (precisely because it is popularly hold to be the main motivating factor) but then immediately explain why it was the least important motivating factor for pre-modern societies.

It's also worth mentioning that directly linked from this blog post are several in-depth examinations of historical military systems, including Mongol, broader steppe nomad (note that the Mongols were exceptional), Roman, Carthaginian, Macedonian, Greek, and Gallic specifically covered in depth, and a couple of other cases (e.g., Medieval Europe and Mamluk examples) more covered in passing. The detail you think is lacking can easily be found in those blog posts.

You can also find a nice summary of the different motivating factors at the end, with 21 specific examples distributed among them. Is that not enough for you?

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#50
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Can you explain?

I think it’s about software engineers, who are supposed to be impervious about effects of caste structures and hierarchy, judging programming languages from the caste lens. That is my interpretation, please don’t hold me against it

Someone once told me Indian software companies deliberately hold "secondary" staff like support etc under worse conditions than engineers (smaller monitors, less windows on walls, etc), because there was some law that said if they would get the same treatment, they would be eligible for same pay.

So they made sure the treatment was obviously inferior.

So, no idea but the Python restriction might have been only one more deliberate hardship on some poor folks.

If someone knows something more accurate, happy to learn.

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